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 Post subject: Re: More Rolling Stock Up For Grabs At Royal Gorge Scenic, C
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:27 pm 

Joined: Sat May 07, 2016 1:12 am
Posts: 83
Wouldn't the Friends of the 4449 be interested in the SP dome and baggage car. The mainline steam groups seem to be in need of matching passenger consists, and these would fit the 4449 well in appropriate paint


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 Post subject: Re: More Rolling Stock Up For Grabs At Royal Gorge Scenic, C
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:32 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 788
JayZee wrote:
Wouldn't the Friends of the 4449 be interested in the SP dome and baggage car. The mainline steam groups seem to be in need of matching passenger consists, and these would fit the 4449 well in appropriate paint


Did any of these SP domes ever have Daylight paint while in service? What about the baggage?

BTW, according to the management at CC&RG, the dome IS for sale but the baggage car is NOT. They have plans for it, and that is all they would say.


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 Post subject: Re: More Rolling Stock Up For Grabs At Royal Gorge Scenic, C
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:34 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 788
Mtn3781 wrote:
So is the SP dome car still interchangable? If not what would it take? Ballpark figure on what it would cost to have it moved to GA?

Are there any other cars that had atriums in them? And of the 7 it appears there are only 2 left. Is that right?

Anybody have the floorplan with the dimensions or where would I find them? I hear windows on train cars are expensive. How much are you looking at just to get the windows fixed? What's under the raised up section, just storage?

If you are kicking the tires, what else do you want to know or to look for?


What was the old saw - - - "If you have to ask the price, you probably can't afford it."


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 Post subject: Re: More Rolling Stock Up For Grabs At Royal Gorge Scenic, C
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:20 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:49 pm
Posts: 119
Location: San Jose, CA
Lincoln Penn wrote:
Did any of these SP domes ever have Daylight paint while in service?


Yes.
http://streamlinermemories.info/?p=1392


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 Post subject: Re: More Rolling Stock Up For Grabs At Royal Gorge Scenic, C
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:41 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:30 pm
Posts: 41
Quote:
BTW, according to the management at CC&RG, the dome IS for sale but the baggage car is NOT. They have plans for it, and that is all they would say.


So are they selling it because it's in such sad shape they don't want to spend the money on it. Or do they just don't need another dome car? They looking to make the baggage car into another open air car? I checked out their website and they appear to have a very nice professional operation. I may have to pay then a visit. I noticed though their Santa trains are actually cheaper than their regular trains. Either that or they raised their prices for this year.

So other than the 7 cars SP made, were there any others that had an atrium in them? And there is only 2 left, right?

Quote:
What was the old saw - - - "If you have to ask the price, you probably can't afford it."


How do you know how much I can afford? There was a kid that just recently bought a commuter car for less than $1,000 that when I saw the pictures I was, whoa, I would have bought that. The inside was nice. I didn't even bother to look into it because everybody on here was saying they were junk. I guess they were wrong.

Now this dome car does look like junk, but I learned my lesson. If I see something I'm interested in, go kick the tires. I really like the atrium on this. Anybody have any idea where I might find drawings with dimensions?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if nobody buys it, it's probably just getting scrapped right? And the 30 days was, 30 days from when they posted they needed everything gone, or if you buy it, you have 30 days?


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 Post subject: Re: More Rolling Stock Up For Grabs At Royal Gorge Scenic, C
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:08 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:49 pm
Posts: 119
Location: San Jose, CA
Mtn3781 wrote:
So other than the 7 cars SP made, were there any others that had an atrium in them? And there is only 2 left, right?


I'm unaware of any other cars that have the "atrium" feature. And I think that there are 3 left, if you count the one in Panama.


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 Post subject: Re: More Rolling Stock Up For Grabs At Royal Gorge Scenic, C
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:21 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:30 pm
Posts: 41
So SP was worried about 8 inches? Really.

Quote:
At 15-feet, 2-inches tall, these were the shortest domes built: an inch shorter than the Pullman-built domes for the B&O Columbian; five inches shorter than the Milwaukee Super Domes; and eight inches shorter than most Budd short domes. This can be seen from the small forward- and rear-facing windows of the SP domes.


So when was the first dome cars if they didn't show up east of Chicago until 1949? Wow, almost had to scrunch down to see out the side windows on the B&O's domes. And they were made out of flat glass.

Quote:
On May 5, 1949–just 45 days after the California Zephyr‘s inaugural run–the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad introduced the first dome cars in regular service east of Chicago. The cars, which the B&O called “strata-domes,” were part of the Columbian, an all-coach train that went from New York to Chicago via Washington, DC, Pittsburgh, and Akron, Ohio.

Starting in 1931, the Columbian was the nation’s first air-conditioned train, and it went between Washington and New York (actually, Jersey City, where passengers caught a ferry to New York City).

http://streamlinermemories.info/?p=1232

Even has a small kitchen in it.

Quote:
One stairway led straight to a door to the next car, while the other went down into a 20-seat lounge that still had the dome overhead, giving a cathedral-like feeling. The end of the car–the part without a dome–held a small kitchen for serving drinks and snacks to passengers.

The first dome only also had a crew-dorm at the rear end. The car was also a little shorter (81 feet vs. 85 feet) than the other SP domes. Notice that the car has ten panels of dome windows, while the later domes had twelve. This suggests that the later domes had more seats on the upper deck, but I can’t find any record of how many there were in these cars.

SP’s second full-length dome showing twelve panels of glass in the dome as opposed to the ten used in the first dome


So was there a problem with the glass breaking, or did they fix that? That's not why there are all those broken windows in the picture is it?

Quote:
An apocryphal story says that SP couldn't keep the glass in the Budd-supplied dome frame from cracking -- until someone got the idea to bash the car against a bumper to relieve stresses!


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 Post subject: Re: More Rolling Stock Up For Grabs At Royal Gorge Scenic, C
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:45 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8820
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
Mtn3781 wrote:
Quote:
What was the old saw - - - "If you have to ask the price, you probably can't afford it."


How do you know how much I can afford? There was a kid that just recently bought a commuter car for less than $1,000 that when I saw the pictures I was, whoa, I would have bought that. The inside was nice. I didn't even bother to look into it because everybody on here was saying they were junk. I guess they were wrong.


Somebody has to be the "bad parent" and say no.

Whether we like or acknowledge it or not, the bitter truth is that owning rail equipment on tracks, unless it's a caboose in your backyard or you are wealthy enough to own a railroad company, is dependent upon the cooperation and support of other entities, and even the regulatory aspects of anything from local zoning to the FRA.

Further, if you get it, it's YOUR responsibility. You incur all expenses--for storage (if not on your own property), for transport, for making it acceptable to whoever transports it, etc. That starts to rack up quickly,unless your rolling stock is on a friendly, cooperative operator--and "free" is worth what you (don't) pay for it.

It would be dereliction of duty, or professional malpractice, for the professional railroad rolling stock wrangler of any stripe to let an unprepared person wantonly acquire such an "albatross," just like selling a six-year-old a horse or selling Bart Simpson an abandoned factory. Any seller has a degree of responsibility to enquire of the buyer, to the ninth-circle-of-Hades degree, whether they REALLY know everything about what they have to do once the hands are shaken, and have a plan and strategy in place, unless they simply want to rip off some unwitting sap and then call in the scrappers. This is not an auto in a backyard where you can just roll in a roll-back and drag it to another backyard, or a motorcycle you can stick in a shed. The MVA/DMV doesn't post the fee schedule on a website. Even a regular passenger car is a rhymes-with-witch to move over roads; this thing may be impossible.

And some of the pieces of glass to be replaced on that dome will likely cost more apiece than the other chap referenced paid for the entire SPV-2000.

I once helped another party acquire a passenger car that had been stored on a freight railroad's sidings. I was sent by the new owner to inspect and secure the car prior to pickup by a Class One. The manager of the railroad told me when I showed up "You're the first guy who's showed up here that knew what he was doing. You wouldn't believe the idiots that wanted the car and had no clue what they would have been getting themselves into!" Further conversation revealed that even the guy who had had the car had gotten himself way over his head.......

Further, there are professional entities in this business, many with liquid funds, that can make both a financial and logistical case for acquiring such an oddball piece of rolling stock--a couple car leasing companies, Grand Canyon Ry., Verde Canyon RR, the Oregon custodians of 4449, etc. The fact that no one else has been perched on a wire ready to swoop in on this car(cass?) says a lot in its own right.

Budd domes in good operable condition used to command up to the mid-six-figures, dollar-wise. This car is neither Budd nor in good operable condition. I don't want to see this car scrapped, but may God help the party that tries to get this..........


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 Post subject: Re: More Rolling Stock Up For Grabs At Royal Gorge Scenic, C
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:04 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 569
I am curious about the value of dome cars for tourist operations in general, and the disposition of this car in particular. On the facebook entry referenced in the OP, someone left this comment:

"With a few bucks (like 750K-1M) this would be a fantastic car. It would quickly earn its cost back in 3-5 years, no problem. The SP 3/4 domes were some of the best floor plans for domes ever done. That floor to glass ceiling entrance was just incredible."

The million earned in five years may be far-fetched. But it would seem on the face of it that a dome would attract more riders than a regular coach, yet this car has been kicked around since Amtrak retired it. Could someone in the know about tourist line finances comment here: does a dome car attract substantially more riders than regular coaches?


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 Post subject: Re: More Rolling Stock Up For Grabs At Royal Gorge Scenic, C
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:39 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:29 pm
Posts: 345
These cars were actually built on heavyweight parlor car frames...and they are said to be the heaviest passenger cars ever built...even heavier then full-length domes.

I would be surprised if you could get this car moved to "anywhere" by rail. The Class 1's have become so hard to work with anymore. If you could get it moved by rail...imagine $6000 or more...much more. Problem is you can't get a firm idea of the cost until you get the final bill. I have talked to several people who bought "cheap" cars and then paid more then the car was worth to have it moved...this includes a boxcar in one case. Best option may be by highway.

T7


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 Post subject: Re: More Rolling Stock Up For Grabs At Royal Gorge Scenic, C
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:28 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 788
Termite7 wrote:
These cars were actually built on heavyweight parlor car frames...and they are said to be the heaviest passenger cars ever built...even heavier then full-length domes.


This cannot be true. The car rides on 2-axle trucks; if it were anywhere near the heaviest, it would be on 3-ale trucks.


Termite7 wrote:
I would be surprised if you could get this car moved to "anywhere" by rail. The Class 1's have become so hard to work with anymore. If you could get it moved by rail...imagine $6000 or more...much more. Problem is you can't get a firm idea of the cost until you get the final bill. I have talked to several people who bought "cheap" cars and then paid more then the car was worth to have it moved...this includes a boxcar in one case. Best option may be by highway.

T7


Somehow, it managed to get where it is by rail.


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 Post subject: Re: More Rolling Stock Up For Grabs At Royal Gorge Scenic, C
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:38 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 788
Mtn3781 wrote:
So are they selling it because it's in such sad shape they don't want to spend the money on it. Or do they just don't need another dome car? They looking to make the baggage car into another open air car? I checked out their website and they appear to have a very nice professional operation. I may have to pay then a visit. I noticed though their Santa trains are actually cheaper than their regular trains. Either that or they raised their prices for this year.


It appears they are selling it because they don't want it any more, or possibly because of the considerable expense of making it into a first class car. But you would have to ask them.

Quote:
What was the old saw - - - "If you have to ask the price, you probably can't afford it."

How do you know how much I can afford?


You might want to look closer at the answer. I was repeating a phrase that has been around for decades. There was no mention of you. But if you have a half million or so laying around to invest in doing everything such a car needs, by all means, have at it.

Quote:
There was a kid that just recently bought a commuter car for less than $1,000 that when I saw the pictures I was, whoa, I would have bought that. The inside was nice. I didn't even bother to look into it because everybody on here was saying they were junk. I guess they were wrong.


Has this 'kid' done anything with the car? Moved it anywhere? Upgraded it in any way?
How much did any or all of that cost him?

Quote:
Now this dome car does look like junk, but I learned my lesson. If I see something I'm interested in, go kick the tires.


Please keep us in the loop and let us know how your endeavor turns out.


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 Post subject: Re: More Rolling Stock Up For Grabs At Royal Gorge Scenic, C
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:50 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:12 am
Posts: 713
Location: cheyenne
I would be surprised if you could get this car moved to "anywhere" by rail. The Class 1's have become so hard to work with anymore. If you could get it moved by rail...imagine $6000 or more...much more. Problem is you can't get a firm idea of the cost until you get the final bill. I have talked to several people who bought "cheap" cars and then paid more then the car was worth to have it moved...this includes a boxcar in one case. Best option may be by highway.

T7[/quote]
And its leaving by rail so yes you can it get it moved anywhere

Mike P


Last edited by car57 on Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: More Rolling Stock Up For Grabs At Royal Gorge Scenic, C
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:25 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 1549
Location: Southern California
Termite7 wrote:
These cars were actually built on heavyweight parlor car frames...and they are said to be the heaviest passenger cars ever built...even heavier then full-length domes.
NO, not from heavyweight cars!
The Southern Pacific dome cars were all built by the company's Sacramento General Shops using the center sills and other components of first generation light-weight passenger cars. Information about these cars from the series of books produced by the SPH&TS about the passenger cars of the SP
Code:
Dome car   completed   parts from   type         built
SP 3600   7/23/54      SP 2950      parlor-obs   P-S 2/22/27
SP 3601   3/21/55      T&NO 700      parlor      P-S 8/28/37
SP 3602   4/6/55      SP 10311      tavern      P-S 2/27/37
SP 3603   4/26/55      SP 10310      tavern      P-S 2/22/37
SP 3604   5/12/55      SP 3000      parlor      P-S 2/22/37
SP 3605   5/27/55      SP 10312      tavern      P-S 1/1/38
SP 3606   6/10/55      T&NO 950   diner-lng-obs   P-S 8/28/37

_________________
Brian Norden


Last edited by Brian Norden on Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: More Rolling Stock Up For Grabs At Royal Gorge Scenic, C
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:47 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 569
car57 wrote:
And its leaving by rail so yes you can it get it moved anywhere

Mike P


Have you seen news of the dome moving by rail?

I have seen almost unbelievable quotes for getting cars certified to be moved by Amtrak (e.g., the New Mexico group restoring 2926 had a baggage car donated to them to use as a tool car, but say this in a gofundme request: "The former AT&SF 3939 baggage car is generously being donated to the New Mexico Steam Locomotive and Railroad Historical Society. However, the car needs inspection, repairs, and AMTRAK certification of its trucks at a cost of $100,000.")

Some of this may be for HEP cabling, which Amtrak requires before they'll move anything, and it may be that the dome already has it since it was in Amtrak service into the 1980s. I still think moving it over the highway would be cheaper, unless you plan to use it as a private car in Amtrak consists.


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