It is currently Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:10 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:37 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:29 pm
Posts: 18
I sent you a PM, Ill make a video some time of prepping and using raw wool waste in journal bearings. The big key is tying the waste then soaking/drying the waste before use.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:34 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 362
Location: Orrville, OH
jayrod wrote:
I also found an AAR Lubrication Manual, January 1970 addition. This issue does not contain info on packing with waste, only pads. If anyone has an interest, I'll scan and post it online in PDF format for easy download.

I've requested permission from the AAR to make the manual available for preservationists since it's long retired and they may give the OK (it's likely still protected under copyright). I'll post back with their yea or nay.

_________________
Eric Schlentner
ORHS Car Knocker & Gandy Dancer
http://www.orrvillerailroad.com


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:09 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:39 pm
Posts: 11
Back in 2012 we had an underframe built for tank car AOX 930, which became PSPX 813 and then back again. We found the last lubricator vendor in the US somewhere, but I can't find their name. We bought 5 x 9 wedges from the Strasbourg RR so that might
be a place to ask. Also if you need journal oil (still used on diesel locomotive suspension bearings, DC motors), we bought a 5 gallon pail from Interlube Corporation. My old employer, Phillips 66 still makes it but only sells it in quantities 55 gallons and up. Tom Birkett


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:15 am
Posts: 499
Still trying to find the diagram, but looking through the archives, here is what I posted back in 2009:

------

You can use the extra heavy 24# or was it 28# cotton mop heads as a temporary replacement (based on suggestions from here about a year ago). It worked great for the bearings under the P&R 910 we just moved to the Ct Eastern RR Museum. I talked with many wool yarn and thread factories and distributors but could not find a source for Untreated long strand wool waste (smaller than 1000-3000 pound orders). Best I could find was a source for dyed wool waste, unfortunately when they dye the wool they add an anti-stain compound which prevents wicking of oils, which is good for cloth but horrible for journal packing.

The 4-1/4 x 8 bearings took 1.5 or 2 mops each (I forget now). I used the ones that had binding in the middle and the ends. I first cut the mop heads in half (through the binding in the middle where they mount to the handle) and soaked them for a week in Lucas cylinder lube (it is a plain oil, with anti-rust additives, without the of the surface adhesion enhancer additives that clog the capillary action of the cotton). I used 1 gallon per 5 gallon pail, could have used more as the pail was dry when I packed the journals and I had almost no oil on the rubber gloves. As I placed them in the pail I poured the oil onto each layer and twice that week I inverted the pail, so any oil that settled to the bottom, would pass though the cotton and soak in if there were still any dry patches.

Before I did the packing I first removed the brasses and cleaned the axle ends with fine emery cloth, and wiped them down with Kroil and paper towels to get all the rust powder and sanding grit. Then I coated the bearing surface with engine assembly lube, figured the stickiness of the assembly lube wouldn't pollute the packing enough to worry about, but wanted to make sure there was oil for the first time it rolled.
***Warning*** do not use sand paper or emery cloth on the babbit surface, and it will be close to impossible to get the crystals out of the surface. If you must clean this surface lightly use a wire wheel or a curved metal scraper.

When I packed the journal cellars, I folded the mop heads so that the cut and looped ends were at the center of the bottom layer (1/4 of the length from each end folded under). This was to prevent the axle from being able to pick up an end and push it into and under the brass. As it was over a year ago, I forget if the journal was deep enough that I needed to place one lengthwise along the bottom of the cellar. To pack it I made a packing iron and coated the forked working end with brass so it would not scratch the axle. The packing needs to be tight and should not extend past the end of the axle. After It was packed I added more oil to the bottom and splashed it down both sides of the axle since the packing was so dry. IIRC I used about 3-4 gallons of the Lucas to do all 8 bearings.

It worked so good that after we got the car off the trucks, to place it on to the trailer, the trucks rolled with two men pushing without straining. After we put her back on her trucks, she practically rolled on her own (a.k.a.: no noticeable drag unlike some other cars we have) when we coupled up to her with the trackmobile to bring her into the museum and to her parking spot.

If anyone finds a good source for long strand wool waste, please let others know as it is almost impossible to get pads (journal pad sewing machine was down at both Hooper and the other place [I forget their name, could be using the same supplier] when I was starting the project), so more museums will be looking for wool waste in the not to distant future to maintain their bearings. I was surprised how easy it was to pack the journal, other people always made sound like some tricky labor intensive job, maybe they just never tried doing it. You just need to be careful and take your time.

So far we have not noticed any problems, (not that they have moved her much, probably 2 miles for the trucks and 1 mile for the coach), but the axles are immediately wet with oil when we start to push her. Also after the trucks had sat for 6 months there was no sign of the bearing surfaces rusting.

Not sure if the Lucas is good for a long term solution as Interlube (http://www.interlubecorporation.com/railroad.asp) still makes Journal Guard, which is the correct oil for the pads and packing.

Unless we can find a source for the wool waste, I would feel confident using the mop heads for the next car, but with the Journal Guard oil instead of the Lucas.

Hope this helps,

Rich Cizik
MoW Foreman
Blacksmith Shop Co-Head
P&R 910 Move project head
Ct Eastern RR Museum
Willimantic, Ct 06226
http://www.cteastrrmuseum.org


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:46 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 362
Location: Orrville, OH
Clyde Putman wrote:
The Friends of the C&TSRR used Hooper twice last in 2017. They ARE hard to get ahold of, I thing rather than leaving a message we just kept calling until a real person answered.

Clyde - Any idea what they cost? If not, I'll try contacting Hooper. I'm going to have to budget some money for at least six pads for 6-1/2" x 12" bearings.

Cleaning out a boxcar, I found a box of what I think are Southland pads for 5-1/2" x 10". Haven't measured them yet. And I found a box of Hennessy Products Sealwell lid gaskets and a couple 5-1/2" AR-12 rear seals. Kinda like Christmas in January.

I haven't yet heard back from AAR for permission to copy and distribute the 1970 Lubrication Manual.

I'll still need wool waste for some other equipment.

_________________
Eric Schlentner
ORHS Car Knocker & Gandy Dancer
http://www.orrvillerailroad.com


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:59 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:51 pm
Posts: 100
Clyde Putman wrote:
Gord M:
You said that wool waste "works well if properly done"
Any advice on how to do it?

I like that idea as a backup plan to Hooper, with the added advantage that we won't have to worry about getting the right size pads.

-Clyde Putman
Volunteer with the Friends of the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic RR


A.A.R. published manuals on recommended practice for doing this and most major railroads also published journal packing manuals that closely followed A.A.R. practice. Basically, you have to form a plug or back roll to under the journal against the dust guard. It is best explained by pictures but generally, you want the waste to surround the underside of the journal to just below the centerline with loose ends tucked under so you don't get a waste grab. It was also general practice to soak the waste in journal oil, then let it drain on a screen before packing it.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:08 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:51 pm
Posts: 100
crij wrote:
Still trying to find the diagram, but looking through the archives, here is what I posted back in 2009:

------

You can use the extra heavy 24# or was it 28# cotton mop heads as a temporary replacement (based on suggestions from here about a year ago). It worked great for the bearings under the P&R 910 we just moved to the Ct Eastern RR Museum. I talked with many wool yarn and thread factories and distributors but could not find a source for Untreated long strand wool waste (smaller than 1000-3000 pound orders). Best I could find was a source for dyed wool waste, unfortunately when they dye the wool they add an anti-stain compound which prevents wicking of oils, which is good for cloth but horrible for journal packing.

The 4-1/4 x 8 bearings took 1.5 or 2 mops each (I forget now). I used the ones that had binding in the middle and the ends. I first cut the mop heads in half (through the binding in the middle where they mount to the handle) and soaked them for a week in Lucas cylinder lube (it is a plain oil, with anti-rust additives, without the of the surface adhesion enhancer additives that clog the capillary action of the cotton). I used 1 gallon per 5 gallon pail, could have used more as the pail was dry when I packed the journals and I had almost no oil on the rubber gloves. As I placed them in the pail I poured the oil onto each layer and twice that week I inverted the pail, so any oil that settled to the bottom, would pass though the cotton and soak in if there were still any dry patches.

Before I did the packing I first removed the brasses and cleaned the axle ends with fine emery cloth, and wiped them down with Kroil and paper towels to get all the rust powder and sanding grit. Then I coated the bearing surface with engine assembly lube, figured the stickiness of the assembly lube wouldn't pollute the packing enough to worry about, but wanted to make sure there was oil for the first time it rolled.
***Warning*** do not use sand paper or emery cloth on the babbit surface, and it will be close to impossible to get the crystals out of the surface. If you must clean this surface lightly use a wire wheel or a curved metal scraper.

When I packed the journal cellars, I folded the mop heads so that the cut and looped ends were at the center of the bottom layer (1/4 of the length from each end folded under). This was to prevent the axle from being able to pick up an end and push it into and under the brass. As it was over a year ago, I forget if the journal was deep enough that I needed to place one lengthwise along the bottom of the cellar. To pack it I made a packing iron and coated the forked working end with brass so it would not scratch the axle. The packing needs to be tight and should not extend past the end of the axle. After It was packed I added more oil to the bottom and splashed it down both sides of the axle since the packing was so dry. IIRC I used about 3-4 gallons of the Lucas to do all 8 bearings.

It worked so good that after we got the car off the trucks, to place it on to the trailer, the trucks rolled with two men pushing without straining. After we put her back on her trucks, she practically rolled on her own (a.k.a.: no noticeable drag unlike some other cars we have) when we coupled up to her with the trackmobile to bring her into the museum and to her parking spot.

If anyone finds a good source for long strand wool waste, please let others know as it is almost impossible to get pads (journal pad sewing machine was down at both Hooper and the other place [I forget their name, could be using the same supplier] when I was starting the project), so more museums will be looking for wool waste in the not to distant future to maintain their bearings. I was surprised how easy it was to pack the journal, other people always made sound like some tricky labor intensive job, maybe they just never tried doing it. You just need to be careful and take your time.

So far we have not noticed any problems, (not that they have moved her much, probably 2 miles for the trucks and 1 mile for the coach), but the axles are immediately wet with oil when we start to push her. Also after the trucks had sat for 6 months there was no sign of the bearing surfaces rusting.

Not sure if the Lucas is good for a long term solution as Interlube (http://www.interlubecorporation.com/railroad.asp) still makes Journal Guard, which is the correct oil for the pads and packing.

Unless we can find a source for the wool waste, I would feel confident using the mop heads for the next car, but with the Journal Guard oil instead of the Lucas.

Hope this helps,

Rich Cizik
MoW Foreman
Blacksmith Shop Co-Head
P&R 910 Move project head
Ct Eastern RR Museum
Willimantic, Ct 06226
http://www.cteastrrmuseum.org


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:53 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:29 pm
Posts: 18
Reviving a old post, but I have made a 2 part video on our practice of making Raw wool waste yarn packing's at McKinney Avenue Transit in Dallas, These videos are made for a persons who know nothing of the topic and my be a bit repetitive for those already knowledgeable, also there may be other industry practices out there but this is ours and have been using it successfully since 1989 in daily service 365 days a year. We started to use Hooper pads pretty much right before they shut down and had to start making these again.

Part 1 https://youtu.be/ItuDcKE_dGY

Part 2 https://youtu.be/_jGXs2BeLYY


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:14 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:15 am
Posts: 499
So where does McKinney get their yarn? Back when I had been looking I couldn't find anyone that had access to raw yarn, only pre-treated. THat is short of paying crafting premium rate at the local spinning club and co-ops. Thus we had to use cotton mops for the new packing in preparation of the coach move.

With the packing iron, one thing you didn't mention that I did find in an old book back then was the spade should be Brass coated (brazed) to prevent scoring the axle.

In the large yards, the most common use of the side block by car knockers was to grab the spring closed journal lids, instead of bending over and using their hand. So they could do a servicing without setting anything down, iron in left hand, oil scupper in right -- hook open the journal, add oil, and close lid with foot or fist holding the packing iron. Sometimes the cars were moving to fast so they only had time to open and oil, thus the brakeman later had to go through the train and close the lids (which probably had the advantage of double checking the oil levels).

Great video. Was the process you used passed down through the shop force and/or based on old maintenance manuals? For some reason the document which I have lost over the years, I think showed a smaller skein. IIRC the loop length was about double the width of the journal cellar, and you inserted it with the loop ends touching at the bottom. I wish I could find the diagram, unfortunately all I can find is the ones for using raw wool waste and journal pads, not yarn.

Thanks,
Rich C.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:26 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:29 pm
Posts: 18
Try Mora Wools <-"Nix that". not the company...


Last edited by traindude70 on Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:00 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 362
Location: Orrville, OH
Thanks for those videos. That's exactly what I was looking for to be able to shuttle cars around the yard and not have to worry about scoring any bearings. Brasses are getting harder to come by - we have only a few spares.

BTW, I paid attention to your setup for the soaking and hanging - less mess and saves oil.

I'll check out Mora Wools.

Thanks again.

_________________
Eric Schlentner
ORHS Car Knocker & Gandy Dancer
http://www.orrvillerailroad.com


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:06 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:29 pm
Posts: 18
Mora wools was a incorrect name, you may need to find your own supplier but here is the exact wool yarn we use in our cars. http://www.cascadeyarns.com/cascade-EcologicalWool.htm, Or you can just purchase it off of amazon although they are bit pricey.
https://www.amazon.com/s?url=search-ali ... gical+Wool

Depending on your need for journals send me a PM and I can point you at a company that can make patterns and will cast bearings/babbit them.


Last edited by traindude70 on Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:10 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 362
Location: Orrville, OH
Perfect timing. I just started searching online for raw wool skeins.

Thanks.

_________________
Eric Schlentner
ORHS Car Knocker & Gandy Dancer
http://www.orrvillerailroad.com


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:41 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:59 pm
Posts: 560
Western Railway Museum has used this firm. They are still on the internet.

Miller Waste Mills
850 East Front Street
Winona, MN 55987-4256
507-454-6906
FAX 507-454-8681
https://www.millerwastemills.com/materials/wool-fiber/
Wool skeins for bearing lubrication


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:35 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:15 pm
Posts: 1310
Location: Henderson Nevada
Last year Miller Waste only had cotton... and no hope of wool... we bought a 100lb bale... it wasn't too expensive but the freight was outrageous...

In the past I have used white cotton socks in narrow gauge cars in limited service...

Randy

_________________
Randy Hees
Director, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Boulder City, Nevada
http://museums.nevadaculture.org/nsrmbc
http://www.nevadasouthern.com/
https://www.facebook.com/FriendsOfNevadaSouthernRailway


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 71 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: