It is currently Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:28 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

would you be interested in a project like this?
yes 17%  17%  [ 9 ]
no 83%  83%  [ 43 ]
Total votes : 52
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Would anybody be interested in a Y6b replica
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:20 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1004
Quote:
"You could start with the design for the small Berkshires that ran on the "old" Norfolk Southern, which would be a great size for a larger tourist line, and apply Van Swearingen, Porta, Wardale and Chapelon thinking to it. I believe all of them went to Mexico and were scrapped. A vest pocket Superpower Berk dash 2?"


Not to start anything but a technical discussion, and not intending to open up any cans of worms already recognizeable ... but why would you do this with a new-build Berk when you could do better starting with, say, the Niagara no one seems to know what to do with up at New Hope? That's a much better starting point for something that size, and it might solve more 'preservation' quandaries than it would pose.

_________________
R.M.Ellsworth


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would anybody be interested in a Y6b replica
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:42 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 986
Really, guys, really? Why should I or anyone else donate funds to build or overhaul yet another hangar queen? As was mentioned way back on the first page of this thread, can anyone make an economic case for spending a million bucks or more to build an engine that will take 100 years to earn its first cost?

Several years ago, Dave Lathrop made a very strong case for construction of generic locomotives, utilizing the same major components such as boiler courses, cylinder blocks, drivers, cabs, controls, tenders, etc. This would make it possible to have a 2-6-2 or 2-8-2 in tender or tank engine version, or a 2-6-0 and 2-8-0, or maybe a 4-6-0 and a 4-6-2. Any one of these engines would be a much more economical locomotive to build and operate on a tourist railroad or even on a historic line, thus preserving the actual artifacts. The results of his proposal? Crickets.

What I don't understand is why so many folks are hot to restore or build some monster locomotive that at best may only get out on the railroad half a dozen times a year. I'd much rather see a 2-6-2 running 20 or 30 days annually than a 4-6-4 or 2-8-4 on three or four outings.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would anybody be interested in a Y6b replica
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:30 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1004
Quote:
"Several years ago, Dave Lathrop made a very strong case for construction of generic locomotives, utilizing the same major components such as boiler courses, cylinder blocks, drivers, cabs, controls, tenders, etc. This would make it possible to have a 2-6-2 or 2-8-2 in tender or tank engine version, or a 2-6-0 and 2-8-0, or maybe a 4-6-0 and a 4-6-2. Any one of these engines would be a much more economical locomotive to build and operate on a tourist railroad or even on a historic line, thus preserving the actual artifacts. The results of his proposal? Crickets."


Some things have changed, and more will be changing, that may make this more attractive. I'm not sure the 'crickets' are more than circumstantial; a very similar kind of proposal from DLM'Roger Waller as late as 2012 appears to have met with similar functional silence, despite several attractive discussions of the possibilities of 'Plandampf' or commuter service.

Much of the fabrication becomes much simpler when the cost of disk or fiber lasers, especially very-short-repetitive-pulse modulated types, comes down (as I expect it will) and corresponding techniques of keyhole welding are worked out and then 'mainstreamed' to the welding community. This should make fairly easy frame fabrication from 'a kit of standard parts' into the moral equivalent of a cast bed as far as homogeneous strength and effective service lifetime is concerned; it also promises to make welded boiler fabrication entirely out of appropriate sections practical. I had originally thought that Dave's line would be made like a 'new USRA", with good-looking designs engineered for practical needs; I'm now beginning to wonder just how much customization becomes practicable with, say, waterjet cutting and good laser-welded structure strain-relieved in CA. Or how shipping costs might be simplified if the engine is provided as a set of subassemblies each easily modularly transported and then quickly assembled near or on site where it is to be used.

_________________
R.M.Ellsworth


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would anybody be interested in a Y6b replica
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:33 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:08 am
Posts: 60
The problem is twofold, the first is that newbuilds are astonishingly expensive unless you go for an aggressive batch-build. The second is... how'd your business model work?

Even with newbuild projects seemingly littering the UK countryside now there are very very few people putting forward the idea of batch-building locomotives. Nearly all the organisations building practical things, or proposing practical engines for the UK scene (such as the Patriot Trust after Unknown Warrior is complete, the A1 Trust and the 82045 Trust) simply seem willing to offer up any modern drawings after completion of their tank locomotives to let other people "have a go".

This at least is where the US certainly has an advantage as many many railroads there relied on Baldwin and Alco for their motive power, so something visually similar (but vastly better technologically) could easily come along and not look out of place. This didn't happen in the UK until the 1950s with the rise of Riddles' Standard Classes (which was mostly the LMS's design philosophy winning out over all the others in practicality terms).

The problem then becomes how would you work it as a viable business? My common sense hat says that very few railroads would want to outright buy an engine and the ones which would benefit the most (the smaller, less known lines) certainly wouldn't be able to.

So that means leasing engines. Leasing comes with all sorts of other strings attached, steaming fees (You pay each time you throw a match in it), agreed day-to-day maintenance programs, if it's smaller lines which have only operated Diesels then there'd have to be training in the safe use of systems. In order to get the most out of your boilers you'd probably mandate Porta Water Treatment (and sell the chemicals for it as well).

You yourself with your mythical steam works would want to get the most out of your engines too, so you'd be making people do those little extras as well. Overt Chapeolonism would become your watchword and as we saw with the Rio Turbio Railway if you're not familiar with some of the quirks of the designs might cause the engines to degrade or lose power.

You'd save costs on everything but the absolute major issue of the boiler, so you'd have a similar model to Baldwin (a catalogue or webpage with 'these are your bits here, click to order) to hand. You could probably leave basics like wheel replacement to the railroads themselves, but in other cases you'd be dispatching an engineer of your own to these places to oversee or check/inspect the work.

Leasing agreements could be on a sliding ruler at the very least, size of engine would determine the initial cost before you could also offer other services as well.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would anybody be interested in a Y6b replica
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:56 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 1813
I find it fascinating that this thread found it's way immediately under the one about 1309, a far less daunting project in danger of coming to a screeching halt, and nobody has figured out that would be the best shot at a big Mallet running, if there was this magic supply of money.

Maybe there needs to be a section for "fantasy".


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would anybody be interested in a Y6b replica
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:07 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:09 am
Posts: 62
JDParkes wrote:
The problem is twofold, the first is that newbuilds are astonishingly expensive unless you go for an aggressive batch-build. The second is... how'd your business model work?

Even with newbuild projects seemingly littering the UK countryside now there are very very few people putting forward the idea of batch-building locomotives. Nearly all the organisations building practical things, or proposing practical engines for the UK scene (such as the Patriot Trust after Unknown Warrior is complete, the A1 Trust and the 82045 Trust) simply seem willing to offer up any modern drawings after completion of their tank locomotives to let other people "have a go".

This at least is where the US certainly has an advantage as many many railroads there relied on Baldwin and Alco for their motive power, so something visually similar (but vastly better technologically) could easily come along and not look out of place. This didn't happen in the UK until the 1950s with the rise of Riddles' Standard Classes (which was mostly the LMS's design philosophy winning out over all the others in practicality terms).

The problem then becomes how would you work it as a viable business? My common sense hat says that very few railroads would want to outright buy an engine and the ones which would benefit the most (the smaller, less known lines) certainly wouldn't be able to.

So that means leasing engines. Leasing comes with all sorts of other strings attached, steaming fees (You pay each time you throw a match in it), agreed day-to-day maintenance programs, if it's smaller lines which have only operated Diesels then there'd have to be training in the safe use of systems. In order to get the most out of your boilers you'd probably mandate Porta Water Treatment (and sell the chemicals for it as well).

You yourself with your mythical steam works would want to get the most out of your engines too, so you'd be making people do those little extras as well. Overt Chapeolonism would become your watchword and as we saw with the Rio Turbio Railway if you're not familiar with some of the quirks of the designs might cause the engines to degrade or lose power.

You'd save costs on everything but the absolute major issue of the boiler, so you'd have a similar model to Baldwin (a catalogue or webpage with 'these are your bits here, click to order) to hand. You could probably leave basics like wheel replacement to the railroads themselves, but in other cases you'd be dispatching an engineer of your own to these places to oversee or check/inspect the work.

Leasing agreements could be on a sliding ruler at the very least, size of engine would determine the initial cost before you could also offer other services as well.
speaking of Tornado, isn’t Sir Nigel Gresley’s A3 basically a refined version of Peppercorn’s A1 and A2? The Flying Scotsman (an A3 mind you) was an A1 at the beginning of it’s life! The A3’s were virtually identical to the A1, just with a few minor improvements! The Argument I’ve been hearing against building a new Y6b is that we already have a similar locomotive in existence. (i.e. 2156) If that’s an issue, then the A1 trust would’ve probably wouldn’t have gotten the support it did, simply because there was a refined version of that locomotive out there and preserved. the Can’t the same philosophy be applied to building a new Y6b?

_________________
"What Responsible Driver would stop, as if he was at a roadside layby? It's Rule 55, you can't do it!"- the Rev. W. Awdry


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would anybody be interested in a Y6b replica
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:11 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:08 am
Posts: 60
tweetsie12 wrote:
speaking of Tornado, isn’t Sir Nigel Gresley’s A3 basically a refined version of Peppercorn’s A1 and A2? The Flying Scotsman (an A3 mind you) was an A1 at the beginning of it’s life! The A3’s were virtually identical to the A1, just with a few minor improvements! The Argument I’ve been hearing against building a new Y6b is that we already have a similar locomotive in existence. (i.e. 2156) If that’s an issue, then the A1 trust would’ve probably wouldn’t have gotten the support it did, simply because there was a refined version of that locomotive out there and preserved. the Can’t the same philosophy be applied to building a new Y6b?


The UK has pretty much restored or is restoring every last "mainline" engine we have available either through the national collection or via various owners, groups and trusts. The UK's now under way on "filling in the gaps" in said collection; Finding reasons to build locomotives everyone felt should've been saved but for one reason or another, were not. While the A3 is a refinement the A1 shows how the design evolved and was improved.

There was also a business plan in place, and places for it to run, with the A1 trust setting out for it to be a touring locomotive on the national network as its primary way of making money to the point they're now acquiring/acquired their own fleet of MK III coaches.

The Patriot Trust's Unknown Warrior is also being built to restore a "gap" (that of there being no extant National Memorial Engine, something that had been done since WW1) and will also be built with mainline touring in mind.

A Y6B is not really something that could be used practically, shipping it would be hard and expensive, touring it with the current climate of the Class I's means it's nigh on impossible for it to go anywhere and be "unleashed" on the main line and most tourist lines would probably balk at the idea of such a huge beast clattering up and down their line.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would anybody be interested in a Y6b replica
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:58 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1004
As I recall, the Peppercorn locomotives came AFTER Gresley's tenure, not before.

Quote:
"The Argument I’ve been hearing against building a new Y6b is that we already have a similar locomotive in existence. (i.e. 2156) If that’s an issue, then the A1 trust would’ve probably wouldn’t have gotten the support it did, simply because there was a refined version of that locomotive out there and preserved. Can’t the same philosophy be applied to building a new Y6b?"


Why, of course it can, and I'm so glad you're volunteering to whip up the level of enthusiasm here for N&W compound power that exists in England for replica steam. After which I'm sure you'll easily manage all the strategic partnerships and arrangements the Trust used to develop the Tornado project through building the locomotive, arrange a proper home and care for the new Y6, and at least start making the connections you'll need when you decide you want someone to run it.

Philosophies are wonderful, but you have to apply them meaningfully for their results to become real. That takes a great deal of hard work, ideally without repeating some of the, er, missteps that some efforts have made, and in the absence of very clever and broad financing appeals a directed effort spanning many years of development.

_________________
R.M.Ellsworth


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would anybody be interested in a Y6b replica
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:18 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:09 am
Posts: 62
superheater wrote:
I find it fascinating that this thread found it's way immediately under the one about 1309, a far less daunting project in danger of coming to a screeching halt, and nobody has figured out that would be the best shot at a big Mallet running, if there was this magic supply of money.

Maybe there needs to be a section for "fantasy".

Interesting.

_________________
"What Responsible Driver would stop, as if he was at a roadside layby? It's Rule 55, you can't do it!"- the Rev. W. Awdry


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would anybody be interested in a Y6b replica
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:29 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:09 am
Posts: 62
JDParkes wrote:
The UK has pretty much restored or is restoring every last "mainline" engine we have available either through the national collection or via various owners, groups and trusts. The UK's now under way on "filling in the gaps" in said collection; Finding reasons to build locomotives everyone felt should've been saved but for one reason or another, were not. While the A3 is a refinement the A1 shows how the design evolved and was improved.



I see where you're coming from. Couldn't a Y6b replica do the same, showing how it improved and built on the Y6a's design?

_________________
"What Responsible Driver would stop, as if he was at a roadside layby? It's Rule 55, you can't do it!"- the Rev. W. Awdry


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would anybody be interested in a Y6b replica
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8689
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
tweetsie12 wrote:
speaking of Tornado, isn’t Sir Nigel Gresley’s A3 basically a refined version of Peppercorn’s A1 and A2? The Flying Scotsman (an A3 mind you) was an A1 at the beginning of it’s life! The A3’s were virtually identical to the A1, just with a few minor improvements!


Nope. Not at all.

Here's the cheat-sheet version:

LNER A1: Gresley (Great Northern Railway) 4-6-2, first three barely finished under GNR, rest built under LNER after 1923 amalgamation
LNER A2: The ill-fated Raven (North Eastern Railway) 4-6-2 design, only five built, replaced by Gresley design by new LNER
LNER A3: Gresley 1928-1930s Rebuild/upgrade of GNR/LNER A1 design, plus 27 built new
LNER A4: The Gresley record-setter streamliner not involved in this discussion

LNER Thompson A2: 25 of three slight variations built 1943-47 after death of Gresley
LNER/BR Peppercorn A2: 15 built 1947-48, only the first under LNER, other 14 completed under BR
LNER/BR Peppercorn A1: 49 built; class ordered under end of LNER but all built by BR post-1948.

Confused yet? Don't worry, even LNER fans need scorecards to keep them all straight.

More here: https://www.a1steam.com/origin-of-the-p ... class-a1s/


Last edited by Alexander D. Mitchell IV on Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would anybody be interested in a Y6b replica
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:51 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
I think I would ask the St Louis Museum if they would like to see the 2156 restored, its one step off the Y6b. If they say no, go build your Y6b.
But I would wait and see how the T1 goes. For an east coast Articulated the 1309 serves well. But it does seem, albeit like UP restoring the Big Boy, the preference is smaller steam, 765 is doing great, is there another potential engine out there like the size of a pacific out there to suit a replicated build that may not be hard on the current diesel based rails?


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would anybody be interested in a Y6b replica
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:49 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:09 am
Posts: 62
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
LNER A3: Gresley 1928-1930s Rebuild/upgrade of GNR/LNER A1 design, plus 27 built new


Look at what you said there: "a Rebuild/upgrade of GNR/LNER A1 design." the Y6b is, again, a rebuild/upgrade of the Y6a. this goes back to my original arguement: If the A1 Trust was so worried about people telling them there was a similar locomotive, they probably would've never built Tornado, and the same philosophy can be applied to building a new Y6b. Image

_________________
"What Responsible Driver would stop, as if he was at a roadside layby? It's Rule 55, you can't do it!"- the Rev. W. Awdry


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would anybody be interested in a Y6b replica
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:35 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:38 pm
Posts: 24
Just so you get what you are comparing, Y6B is over 961000 pounds with the loaded tender (you will need an AUX tender as well but will ignore that need for now), that's near as makes no difference 500 tonnes. A Y6B Is over 100' long (something like 30' more than the A1). The A1 is only 160 tonnes fully loaded. Philosophies didn't build the A1 and philosophy doesn't pull 500 tonnes of steel parts out of the air that have machinists and boilermakers certifications on it. If you were to start a group that was dedicated to bringing into this world a brand new y6b, you would have to secure funding and you are going to answer these same questions all the time. You are going to need a better response to inquiries then this is our philosophy because you aren't going to secure the help of others, least of all Norfolk Southern who I would imagine you would like to have their tacit approval to run it over their territory lest it become a roundhouse queen and never run anywhere because there are few places to turn, service, and even run an engine that large. Instead of worrying about operating philosophies you would concern yourself with the technical aspects of the problem such as casting frames and cylinders, deciding to go with all welded boiler or traditional boiler with welded firebox? Do you update the lubrication? Since you might intend to operate it in the future what are your concerns with PTC?



You are better off building one in live steam if you ever wish to see it run. Check out the live steam section on homemachinist, there are some rather industrious germans who have built 5' gage A's, J's, and Y's complete down to the stoker and roller bearings. And the best part is that its yours, you can run it when you want, and you aren't beholden to any financial overlords or outlying 10s of millions of dollars just to play train. When's the best chance of ever seeing one run? I don't foresee it. Even if diesel fuel were to magically disappear tomorrow, I don't see them rebuilding a Y or New Building one. The manufacturing processes today have benefited from economies of scale and that means traction motors and standard D or C power trucks possibly under a steam turbine much like the N&W 2300 except in a smaller package to allow for effective MU operation.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Would anybody be interested in a Y6b replica
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:19 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8689
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
tweetsie12 wrote:
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
LNER A3: Gresley 1928-1930s Rebuild/upgrade of GNR/LNER A1 design, plus 27 built new


Look at what you said there: "a Rebuild/upgrade of GNR/LNER A1 design." the Y6b is, again, a rebuild/upgrade of the Y6a. this goes back to my original arguement: If the A1 Trust was so worried about people telling them there was a similar locomotive, they probably would've never built Tornado, and the same philosophy can be applied to building a new Y6b.


Here's the ONLY argument that's relevant IN THIS CASE:

There were LOTS of Great Western, LMS,and Southern steamers preserved relative to LNER steam. If the preservation were proportional, there would have been a couple of each class saved. Instead, there were a couple A4 examples saved (two overseas), one "superstar" A3, one Thompson A2 (which was largely forgotten for a while as the owner stored it serviceable out of the limelight), and no Peppercorn Pacifics (and one V2 2-6-2 and a couple 4-6-0s). Compare that to more Kings, Castles, Bullied "Spam Can" Pacifics, and Black Fives than we can count.

There are very few loco classes in Britain that could be counted as "missing links" of 20th-century steam, compared to the multitude here--NYC steam of any type, SR Pacifics and 4-8-2s, various 4-8-4s, etc. Once the idea to build a "new build"mainline steamer took hold, several classes were proposed,many as modifications of "spare" steamers such as a GWR "County" or "Saint" from a Castle or 2-6-2. The A1 succeeded because, in part, it would fill that "missing link" better than the other proposals and satisfy more demand--comparable to a NYC Hudson or Niagara here.

And I'm not even discussing practicality here. You can run a Pacific at speed on a mainline excursion train. Ditto a N&W A class 2-6-6-4. Not a Y-class 2-8-8-2.


Last edited by Alexander D. Mitchell IV on Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Kelly Anderson and 38 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: