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 Post subject: Re: On the subject of newbuilds
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:22 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:08 am
Posts: 60
200 pages with diagrams and outlines of systems proposed by one of the biggest developers and proponents of new age steam engines, mind you. All outlining and using technology he had already developed and at least somewhat understood by the A1 Trust people.

Of course this thread is a little bit of "Wouldn't it be nice?" to it but it feels like an important question to be asked, tackled and considered due to the issues noted by others, namely the ageing historical equipment and the need for new workhorses to shoulder the day-to-day work, allowing the more "legit" heritage stock to romp more freely during high days and holidays, as the saying goes.

I had also considered Forneys (as they are designs I myself have a soft spot for) but initially wondered if they'd be able to put the power down, then I remembered the LVM800 is most definitely a thing basically designed and waiting to be built...

One of the things we have to consider with this is that the wheel arrangement might not matter as much if we stuff this engine to the gills with various developments. Things such as Klypor exhaust (or find someone smart enough to finalise the Lemprex design and see how it works) as well as various other developments.

I feel we'd have to consider (and maybe "nail down") a single design on the basis of saving money for an initial batch build. Derivatives could come later on but being able to build say 4-6 of a "standard" initial design would likely help the viability of the design and business.

A 2-6-2 impulsively seems to "fit the bill" for several contributors and I reckon we could "tweak" the design a little more, maybe make it a 3-cylinder locomotive with a GPCS firebox, "diesel style" pistons (a la Rio Turbio) etc. A possible variant would be 4 cylinders for extra "oomph".

I'd also say putting in the DLM's boiler warming system, where the boiler is placed into a closed circuit and an external electrical heater is used to warm the boiler to around 115psi before lighting seem sensible from an efficiency point of view. I also bet the crews, be they paid or voluntary would likely thank us for this being less work!

Light fuel oil, or used cooking oil seem like sensible ideas to consider and would also help push the "green cred" which is going to come back into vogue for the majority of people as more and more of the issues surrounding the technology go away.

It seems to me that most tourist lines run on an average day similar length trains to the UK, about 6-7 coaches, so could we use that as our potential benchmark?


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 Post subject: Re: On the subject of newbuilds
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:58 pm 

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JDParker brings up another point I hadn't considered. What improvements can be made in the new build that makes it more cost effective, and how far do you go until that cost-benefit scale starts going down? Roller bearings come to mind immediately, and the boiler reheating system he mentioned seems like a worthy idea....

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 Post subject: Re: On the subject of newbuilds
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:08 am
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daylight4449 wrote:
JDParker brings up another point I hadn't considered. What improvements can be made in the new build that makes it more cost effective, and how far do you go until that cost-benefit scale starts going down? Roller bearings come to mind immediately, and the boiler reheating system he mentioned seems like a worthy idea....


Well, I am somewhat proposing/putting forward the idea of an effective, generic new design altogether as opposed to simply going via the reheated leftovers of our forebears.

The DLM in Switzerland also proposed some 2-8-4 tank engines for short-medium range commuter lines between medium sized towns in Europe for both day to day running and tourist trains on the basis that "everyone" enjoys riding behind a steam train over yet another bland and generic diesel railcar. They were proposed for a revived rail line but sadly were not taken up.

The DLM's new build mountain steam engines were more efficient, used less fuel, polluted less and could haul more than equivalent Diesels or Railcar versions. There's nothing to say this couldn't be repeated anywhere else to get more behinds on seats.


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 Post subject: Re: On the subject of newbuilds
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
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Location: NJ
Are we limiting this discussion to steam? Something like a pair of Alco DL-109s or Baldwin 'Babyfaces' would be nice to see. Of course, as newbuilds you would need Tier 4 prime movers. Such a project should be easier to pull off than a new steam locomotive, and could be built with modern air brakes, cab controls and PTC. As diesels, they should be able to be operated just about anywhere a freight car could go.


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 Post subject: Re: On the subject of newbuilds
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:52 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:57 am
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Location: Sandpoint, ID
The LVM 800 series seems like a good place to restart. It would meet the requirements of many tourist operations and be road transportable between them.


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 Post subject: Re: On the subject of newbuilds
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:25 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
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Location: Inwood, W.Va.
EDM wrote:
Are we limiting this discussion to steam? Something like a pair of Alco DL-109s or Baldwin 'Babyfaces' would be nice to see. Of course, as newbuilds you would need Tier 4 prime movers. Such a project should be easier to pull off than a new steam locomotive, and could be built with modern air brakes, cab controls and PTC. As diesels, they should be able to be operated just about anywhere a freight car could go.


Are you sure this would be easier? There's a lot more to diesels than one would think, particularly in regard to wiring.

There might also be potential problems with certain trucks.

There is also the question of a whether you would need a Tier 4 prime mover, or whether an older prime mover might be more appropriate. This comes from a couple of questions:

1. This is a replica locomotive, and like steam, there might be a lot of things that wouldn't really be required or might be exempted, even in new construction.

2. One of the distinctive things about older diesels was and is the sound. Alcos chugged, Baldwins burbled, and EMDs and FMs had a rhythmic chant. I'm not sure a modern prime mover would have that part of the experience.

Just points to consider. . .


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 Post subject: Re: On the subject of newbuilds
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:04 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
Such locomotives make economic sense from a railway’s point of view as well.


1) Does steam make economic sense at all? There is a reason that railways converted so quickly... A diesel can do what steam did... (this a fact)

2) Does use of steam lead to higher ridership from those beyond the fringe group that reads this and other similar forums?

3) If it leads to higher ridership, does that increase in ridership justify use of steam, or is it a marginal increase?

As someone who loves steam, and has spent his Saturdays in the firebox of a 4-4-0 with a three pound hammer and a cold chisel working to reflue a locomotive... I suspect not in many cases...

Randy

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 Post subject: Re: On the subject of newbuilds
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:57 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:08 am
Posts: 60
Randy Hees wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Such locomotives make economic sense from a railway’s point of view as well.


1) Does steam make economic sense at all? There is a reason that railways converted so quickly... A diesel can do what steam did... (this a fact)

2) Does use of steam lead to higher ridership from those beyond the fringe group that reads this and other similar forums?

3) If it leads to higher ridership, does that increase in ridership justify use of steam, or is it a marginal increase?

As someone who loves steam, and has spent his Saturdays in the firebox of a 4-4-0 with a three pound hammer and a cold chisel working to reflue a locomotive... I suspect not in many cases...

Randy



1) From new? Yes. There's been numerous new developments proposed, implemented and otherwise seen to have great applications in real-world running conditions. Porta Water Treatment reduces boiler washouts from a weekly action to once every six months, it also vastly increases boiler life. This has been seen working in action on the Kirklees Light Railway, Statfold Barn Railway and the Severn Valley Railway in the UK, with more lines now seriously considering its implementation.

Diesel can do plenty of things, I agree, but not relooking at reliable motive power with far easier to access resources that can be used in it (the above linked LVM800 was designed to burn darn near everything) while potentially raising income further should be looked into.

2) The Durango and Silverton, Georgetown Loop and Strasburg tend to run steam more often than not and despite two of these lines being relatively isolated they report rather higher visitor numbers when placed next to comparable stablemates. Families like things that go "chuff" (usually the Thomas Bug). This bears out in the UK far more acutely but I suspect it's never been properly checked out stateside.

3) The North York Moors Railway during their 2015 steam motive power crisis saw a drop of some 40% in revenues due to replacement of steam by diesels. You can usually charge up to 50% more in the UK at least, for running steam trains rather than diesels. You can probably justify a slightly higher price tag for a train ride if you're running steam trains regularly than not.

It should be stressed this discussion is about how to keep steam going while older equipment begins to become less economical or practical to restore, as others have noted we're seeing diminishing returns both sides of the pond when locomotives are restored, with some engines in the UK being newbuilds in all but name. Even our "youngest" engine is now over 50 years old in the UK and this is only going to get worse over time.

The hope would be to create new engines which take major advantage of technological advances since the end of steam, making maintenance rather more practical, increasing their power and cutting down on their fuel consumption, all while providing the "romance" of steam to the visitor both hard core and casual alike.


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 Post subject: Re: On the subject of newbuilds
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:56 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 1881
On the subject of new builds...at what point does a project like CNW 1385 move into this category, considering that the locomotive will receive a new boiler? Ditto the Climax at Cass?

Wesley


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 Post subject: Re: On the subject of newbuilds
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:58 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:08 am
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wesp wrote:
On the subject of new builds...at what point does a project like CNW 1385 move into this category, considering that the locomotive will receive a new boiler? Ditto the Climax at Cass?

Wesley


The general rule in the UK seems to be as long as the frames are original then it's still the original locomotive.

It's the old adage of the Janitor's Broom. He's had that one broom for all 40 years of service.

Y'know, aside from the three new handles and half a dozen brush heads.


The listed above certainly aren't as extreme as the Tallylyn, where No1 and No2 were "repaired" by a gas fitter firm at their expense, and the engines came back with a single right hand buffer beam and about three bolts still original between them.


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 Post subject: Re: On the subject of newbuilds
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:27 pm 

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wesp wrote:
On the subject of new builds...at what point does a project like CNW 1385 move into this category, considering that the locomotive will receive a new boiler? Ditto the Climax at Cass?

Wesley


That question applies to almost any existing locomotive in the 100+ year old range. I remember Bill Purdie was quoted once regarding one of the Southern 2-8-0's they operated in the early days of the excursion program. He guessed that the only original parts might be a driver center and maybe one boiler course.

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 Post subject: Re: On the subject of newbuilds
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:40 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:08 am
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Another interesting design is a derivative of the 5AT project.

The 8ATT. A more conventional design but presently looking a little.... German. Perhaps an attempt at appealing to international buyers and quite a way from the original look for the UK market...

Downside is according to their own figures is that the 8ATT would run to about $10m or so to fully design and construct, while I suspect the Prometheus (LVM800) would be quite a bit cheaper due to the majority of the grunt design work already being done.


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 Post subject: Re: On the subject of newbuilds
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
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Location: B'more Maryland
If we're talking wild fantasy time here (which, lets face it, most of this is), I'd put forth building something much smaller and simpler.

Look at some of the crazy mid-19th century stuff, like the C&A's "Monster".

Image

Or, if you must have a cab, the rebuilt version.

Image

I'm only half kidding though. This type of thing are simpler to build, operate, maintain, and will definitely be attention getters and are noticeably missing from the current operable steam engine scene.


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 Post subject: Re: On the subject of newbuilds
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:43 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:08 am
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Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
If we're talking wild fantasy time here (which, lets face it, most of this is), I'd put forth building something much smaller and simpler.

Look at some of the crazy mid-19th century stuff, like the C&A's "Monster".

Image

Or, if you must have a cab, the rebuilt version.

Image

I'm only half kidding though. This type of thing are simpler to build, operate, maintain, and will definitely be attention getters and are noticeably missing from the current operable steam engine scene.



You know, quite fascinatingly the UK has something similar in the form of the Pockerley Waggonway at the Beamish Living History Museum. Pictured are modern recreations (L to R) of Puffing Billy, Steam Elephant and Locomotion. Each engine has to meet modern standards, obviously, which includes discreet safety valves painted black and hidden more towards the running boards. They are most certainly NOT easy machines to run, having spoken to the crews.


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 Post subject: Re: On the subject of newbuilds
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:36 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:26 pm
Posts: 79
The most practical new build engine would be a small engine for a tourist railroad as opposed to a larger mainline engine. A 2-6-2, as previously suggested. The basic design could be easily modified into a 2-8-2 if desired. Something like the Baldwin double ender logging locomotives. It could be offered in a tender or tank version. The boiler also could be used on a 2-8-0 or 4-6-0 chassis. Kind of a modular design concept. Customized cab designs could be built. Porta enhancements could be added. It would also demonstrate modern welded construction. Start small. Would need someone with a lot money to back the project.
Tom Hamilton


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