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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:13 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Danbury, CT
Simple question.... Has the City requested proposals for the continued care/preservation of the locomotive?

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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:13 am 

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:05 pm
Posts: 26
Mount Royal wrote:
Simple question.... Has the City requested proposals for the continued care/preservation of the locomotive?


No.

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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:46 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 1738
Location: Pottstown,Pa.
Dear fellow steam lovers. Perhaps we all could just chill for a little while and let Jason alone while he does his best to impart some sense into the PA leadership.

While its been clear to me for a long while that the PA decision makers were bound & determined to keep the 503 in PA no matter what, Jason has made the decision to hang in there ( in good faith) and do his best to see that this engine has a future better than again becoming a rusting jungle gym.

Even though the odds are obviously poor, how about we all bow out for now and wish Jason the best of luck with his mission and while we're at it thank him again for winning the big battle of saving her from scrap.

IMHO-Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:28 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 406
Looking at the video and the photos of the recent relocation of 503 within Bryan Park, it is evident that a great deal of force was required to get the locomotive sliding on the rails. It is unfortunate that the City did not choose the Inland bid for moving 503 as Inland's bid included having Mr. Sobczynski working for a week leading a group to properly prepare the artifact for a move. Since Inland's bid was substantially higher and included a greater deal of work and the additional loco prep was not in the RFP, the City went with the lower bidder, Trans-Global Solutions.

From what I can see, it appears that they bent the cut lever but I can not tell if the ladder and pilot were bent by the way they had the chains attached. It looked like the front truck wheels and the tender wheels rotated. I do not know if TGS lubricated these bearings or not. I have to imagine they were pretty pitted to begin with. Would this mean those axles and journals are now scored from the rotation? Anyone know of any other damage?

As it stands now, it unfortunately appears that this artifact will not be moved out of harm's way or properly protected before the arrival of this year's storm season. For the people of Port Arthur who are still recovering from last year's devastation and for 503, which has not seen much care from the local rail preservationists in the Gulf Coast area for 61 years, I hope this storm season is a light one.


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:37 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:41 pm
Posts: 828
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Mount Royal wrote:
Simple question.... Has the City requested proposals for the continued care/preservation of the locomotive?



Yes, publicly! Though with no particular timeline. Four city council members reached out to me to ask that we get one in sooner rather than later.

I look forward to hearing others insight on this situation I'm involved in, and they have no first hand knowledge of.


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:38 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:41 pm
Posts: 828
Location: Bowling Green, KY
co614 wrote:
Dear fellow steam lovers. Perhaps we all could just chill for a little while and let Jason alone while he does his best to impart some sense into the PA leadership.

While its been clear to me for a long while that the PA decision makers were bound & determined to keep the 503 in PA no matter what, Jason has made the decision to hang in there ( in good faith) and do his best to see that this engine has a future better than again becoming a rusting jungle gym.

Even though the odds are obviously poor, how about we all bow out for now and wish Jason the best of luck with his mission and while we're at it thank him again for winning the big battle of saving her from scrap.

IMHO-Ross Rowland



Ross,

You're a great, great man.

Cheers Sir!


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:18 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Danbury, CT
jasonsobczynski wrote:
Mount Royal wrote:
Simple question.... Has the City requested proposals for the continued care/preservation of the locomotive?



Yes, publicly! Though with no particular timeline. Four city council members reached out to me to ask that we get one in sooner rather than later.

I look forward to hearing others insight on this situation I'm involved in, and they have no first hand knowledge of.



Thank you for your answer. I’m keenly interested in this topic. I was born and raised in Port Arthur. I’m familiar with the engine and with KCS’s history and involvement in the city as my father and grandfather were both employees. I have been and remain supportive of the effort to save 503.

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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:02 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:27 am
Posts: 50
Location: Dallas, Texas
Jason, I'm not answering to be your enemy. I support saving the 503. My answers are to that end. Even though I probably shouldn't climb into the snake pit with you, I will if it will help bring clarity to any misunderstandings and untruths as I understand them. I may be wrong and the truth shall stand regardless of yours or my opinion.

Why are you supporting the notion off the locomotive staying in Texas?

I support the locomotive from being scrapped. I also support a responsible preservation of the locomotive whether for static display or operation. I personally would LOVE to see it operate. But, also I don't want to lose it if that plan does not materialize.

Why are you ever so slyly attempting to assault my character?

I am not attempting to assault you at all, I am calling out public behavior and suggesting you clean it up if you want to make better progress to your end goal with the locals in Port Arthur. You obviously know more about your personal dealings with the city than anyone else, but you have also called the local leader that wants to save it a liar and act like he's getting in your way when all he is doing is trying to save the locomotive for his city. Is that wrong of him to do that? Have you honestly reached out to him and and tried to work with his intentions and find a common ground so you can still acquire the locomotive for operation? Right now, they see your effort as some one who wants to take their history away.

Were it not for our effort, it wouldn't exist. We did that, not the two obstructionists, not the locals.... our collective efforts did that.

Mostly true. You were not the only group trying to save the locomotive and you even admitted it by saying so. I personally know of two cities in Texas and an NRHS chapter that were considering saving the locomotive too, and that doesn't include the cities outside the state that showed interest. But you clearly made the biggest splash and got the majority of support behind you. Everyone was cheering you on to save the 503. Well done Jason and Nick!

I do not understand this Monday morning quarterback mentality.

Let's clear up a few things. Back when Inland had the contract, it was perceived he had control and ownership of the locomotive. And in that light, it became real that the 503 would be scrapped if something wasn't done immediately! The situation became a real crisis for everyone who loves steam and an abomination to allow a steam locomotive to be scrapped in this day and age. Your quick action to go down there, asses its condition, video it and start a GoFundMe campaign was timely and brilliant!

Your plan also included a means to haul off the locomotive to safe storage at the Texas State Railroad until such time a plan could be put together. This was all based on the conclusion the locomotive was gong to be scrapped... period. The rail enthusiast and preservation community with your leadership responded and raised the money in record time. As a result, you and Nick pulled off the impossible. It truly was amazing to watch!

You list your timeline elsewhere and I will not contest it.

It's most unfortunate that the bias of your friendship/ acquaintanceship towards the obstructionists leaves you unable to rationally process or otherwise acknowledge the fact that they are attempting to force an artifact to continue to rot somewhere in Texas rather than see it operate in another state. Where were they to try and prevent its deterioration prior to it getting to this point?

That is your opinion and some do not fully agree with your final assessment. The other gentlemen you are attacking care about the well being of the locomotive as much as you do and are only wanting a responsible and accountable solution for its future. It would be nice to see you work with the local group and the city for an amicable solution. I think you are still in a position to make something positive happen and would support you in such a move.

What needs to stop though is your attacks on the local leader in Port Arthur by calling him a liar. Whether it is true or not, the truth will be self evident. But for you to do the name calling is only hurting yourself and your own credibility.

As for what Mr. Goen said about you was taken out of context and he misspoke without checking the facts. He has recounted his statement. He doesn't even know you and is not interested in a smear campaign against you. He was mainly going after the city for it's illegal actions on disposing the locomotive without proper procedures or following the law and while he was at it, he questioned your background and intent to take it out of the state. You are clearly an experienced preservationists and have a long list of projects to back you up. But be honest, if someone doesn't know you or your background, it's fair to question them.

Again, what we did is preservation, what they have done/are doing is launch a slander campaign and continue to attempt to sabatoge efforts of over 1,200 people in the preservation community.

You keep mentioning a slander campaign, I am not aware of one and if there is one, I wouldn't concern myself with it as long as it's false. If you have the truth on your side, keep doing what you are doing.

Btw, which of the two below fit the previously outlined slander campaign they launched against me?

op·pose
əˈpōz/Submit
verb
disapprove of and attempt to prevent, by *argument*. (Note, not by lying or slander)

sab·o·tage
ˈsabəˌtäZH/Submit
verb
DELIBERATELY destroy, damage, or obstruct


NEITHER, I see a few concerned rail preservationist looking out for the integrity and accountability of the locomotive. What hasn't been address yet is after you get the 503 to the Texas State Railroad, then what? How long does it stay there before the money is raised to restore it? How long will that take and what happens if the money is not raised? You know more than anyone how many projects get started and do not see the light of day to be finished. Yes, you raised the money to acquire it and move it based on Inland being the owner, but now that the city is back in charge and if you are awarded the locomotive from the city, what is the plan to raise the one million or so to restore it? And if it doesn't work out (we hope it does) what is the guarantee it will be returned to the city in one piece?

That is all for now. I hope you take this as a discussion with a mutual goal and not another attack against you. You are in the driver's seat with this project. A lot of people are still supporting you.

Sincerely,

Skip Waters
Dallas, Texas
wgcrush


Last edited by wgcrush on Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:22 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 406
I understand the desire for surety but, as Oscar Madison once said, "There no such thing as sure thing." I agree that it is important to have a solid plan, but one can not plan for everything because, if too much time is spent planning, the window of opportunity is missed. While some steam restoration projects fail for lack of planning, as many or more fail because there are too many hands in the dough.

The way I figure, the best insurance anyone has is that Mr. Sobczynski is a young man who is a small businessman in a profession with limited utility outside his industry, an industry which also is very small. If he is willing to put his professional reputation on the line for this project, and willing to put his livelihood at risk, then he has more skin in the game than anyone.

It is much more important and proper to focus on the physical state of 503 than to focus on the geographic state it is in.

The important questions are these.

Of the three plans out there, which one, if executed, will most likely result in 503 making it through the next 50 years, better enable it to bring the history to future generations, and better enable it to preserve all of the history - that is both the artifact and the knowledge (maintenance, repair, and operation)?

Of the three principals behind each plan, who possesses and has demonstrated the skills necessary to most likely be capable of properly executing their plan?

The important answers are in the hearts and minds of the seven voting members of the City Council of Port Arthur.


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:59 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 406
A nicely balanced editorial from the Beaumont Enterprise.

https://www.beaumontenterprise.com/opinions/editorials/article/EDITORIAL-Preserve-old-train-but-maybe-not-in-12870830.php


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:08 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1360
Scranton Yard wrote:

It is much more important and proper to focus on the physical state of 503 than to focus on the geographic state it is in.

The important questions are these.

Of the three plans out there, which one, if executed, will most likely result in 503 making it through the next 50 years, better enable it to bring the history to future generations, and better enable it to preserve all of the history - that is both the artifact and the knowledge (maintenance, repair, and operation)?

Of the three principals behind each plan, who possesses and has demonstrated the skills necessary to most likely be capable of properly executing their plan?



Why are those the most important questions? For instance, why is the physical state of 503 more important than retaining the engine in its current Texas home?


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:30 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 406
Ron Travis wrote:
Why are those the most important questions? For instance, why is the physical state of 503 more important than retaining the engine in its current Texas home?


The only answers that count are those of the seven dedicated people on the Port Arthur City Council.


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:39 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 406
Latest Port Arthur News article - soil abatement has commenced.

https://www.panews.com/2018/04/30/soil-work-under-way-at-503-site/


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:22 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 106
Location: Chattanooga
Good grief! How much oil could have possibly leaked from Engine 503? Surely the tender was virtually empty when it was placed in that location. Any oil in the lubricators would probably be negligible.

I would think many automobiles have leaked more oil than that locomotive.


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 4:30 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3986
Location: Maine
This is being made into a a case of "righteousness". Oh, that neglected locomotive left to pollute! Oh, those people telling us what to do with it!

It could be the tender had significant fuel oil left in it. The asbestos is one thing, lead paint perhaps another. With this investment in remediation, I wouldn't expect the locomotive to get released to people who know how to care for it. In the meanwhile, let Jason use his skills to turn this around.

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