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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:37 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
On Saturday, September 26th, 2015, 12th Post on Page #31, Rainier Rails wrote:
More info from the "Private Passenger Car Annual":

On Wednesday, January 8th, 2014, 3rd Post on Page #7, Rainier Rails wrote:
[section removed]...181. Central Plateau (Lot #4971, Plan #3959E, 1926, 3C-2DR-lng-obs, NYC)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to BRC (1954) to Decatur Jct. RY #800220 to pvt. owner (stored in Cisco, IL)…[s.r.]...
On Friday, January 10th, 2014, 7th Post on Page #7, Bulby wrote:
Car was never owned by DJR,was on trackage prior to DJR's unconventional assumption of operations.

The Central Plateau became Belt Railway of Chicago safety instruction car #1891, and Briggs lists that it was sold (when??) to Don Heimberger, then resold (when??) to Ted Lemen, and then was acquired (when??) by a Ms. J. Howe of Lincoln, IL.

Received info from another forum member (thanks again!) that this car is now owned by Frederick Seibold.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:43 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Another Survivor:

446. Received info from Jacob Carey about this car, a former CSX MofW diner rebuilt from an as-of-yet unknown Club-series Plan #4025 (rebuilt) or Plan #3989 (original) 8S sleeper buffet lounge observation, now located at the Walkersville Southern.

2 Photos:

5/28/13: https://www.flickr.com/photos/meabbott/12220900126 (M.E. Abbott photo)

5/26/18: https://www.flickr.com/photos/8348059@N02/41495400595/ (Andrew photo)

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:36 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
On Friday, January 10th, 2014, 8th Post on Page #7, Rainier Rails wrote:
Some more survivors--

216. Boston (Lot #4211, Plan #2502A, 1914, pvt. car, NP)--sold to NP #6 (1941) to Jefferson River* to pvt. owner Royal Gorge to pvt. owner Alexauker and stored in Logan, OH--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1930186 (Jim Trivett photo)

*The Jefferson River is not listed on the Friends of the Burlington Northern website’s business car roster (at merger: http://fobnr.org/bncarlist/passenger/pbnbuscar.htm), so one can make the assumption that it was sold into private ownership sometime before 1970.
On Sunday, July 20th, 2014, 1st Post on Page #20, rock island lines wrote:
Is this a sleeping car or something else?
"Alexauken"
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/io/iory-alex-adm.jpg
On Sunday, July 20th, 2014, 2nd Post on Page #20, jmlaboda wrote:
Originally built by Pullman as a Plan 2502 private car (leaser) in 1914 the car was sold to the Northern Pacific 22 December 1941, which first numbered the car as NP #6, and then, later, the car was named Jefferson River. It was retired around the time of the Burlington Northern merger (date???) and sold to a private owner. Sad to see this car in this shape.
On Sunday, July 20th, 2014, 3rd Post on Page #20, Rainier Rails wrote:
The above linked photo of the Alexauken on RR Fallen Flags was taken by David Miller on 6/19/2002.

For comparison, here's another photo of the Alexauken, taken by Jim Trivett on 1/23/2010: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1930186

Okay, lots to clear up with this car.

For a while, I had thought the second name under private ownership was Alexander, not Alexauken, but it is indeed Alexauken, as in the "Alexauken Division" of the BR&W...and the first name under private ownership was Rising Gorge, not Royal Gorge.

216. Boston (Lot #4211, Plan #2502A, 1914, pvt. car, NP)--sold to NP #6 (12/22/1941) to Jefferson River (2/29/1956) sold to William Warren Nugent and Arthur E. Pew III as Going Nowhere & Back RY (GNW&B) Rising Gorge (4/2/1966) resold to L.V. "Rocky" Rockafellow Alexauker (circa 1970) located in Stockton, NJ next to the Chenango (ex-Herald Square) (line item #262) owned by Edward J. Joscelyn, moved to Ringoes, NJ, in 1974, sold to Don Lee (circa 1980) who worked for the Indiana & Ohio RY, hence the move to Ohio (unsure exactly where in the Buckeye State), sold to unknown/private owner (1995) and then located at Logan, OH, reportedly moved to the HVSR at East Logan, OH. Has this car actually moved in the last few years, or is this a conflation of locations, i.e., Logan = East Logan, and the car sits in the same spot it has now for some time?

As posted in the NP TellTale email-based list/group on Groups IO, this car was under lien by the B&O in circa 1970, hence the resale to Mr. Rockafellow. Based on a slide I have in my collection of this car as GNW&B taken in Chicago (posted below), I am guessing it was stored somewhere on the B&OCT in the Windy City.

Mr. Nugent and Mr. Pew later acquired the CRI&P business car #98 Choctaw (nee-#1902) (Pullman, 1912, Lot and Plan unknown) as the #800117 Gritty Palace. Based on some comments also in the FB group, Mr. Pew could very well have acquired the Gritty Palace in 1969, so around the same time that the Rising Gorge was placed under lien, and that ownership of the Gritty Palace was later transferred/resold to Mr. Nugent, and then later possibly back to Mr. Pew. The car is listed for sale on Ozark Mountain as of 2018, now located at NCTM in Spencer, NC; there had been posts several years ago regarding issues with the continued storage of this car on Metra property in Chicago.

As posted by Eric Hopp, Mr. Pew was a "BN executive and also a major benefactor to at least two railroad museums."

Mr. Rockafellow, Mr. Joscelyn, and Mr. Jim Dickey pooled their resources to purchase 3 cars in circa 1970, with each taking ownership of 1 of the 3. On the Surviving Passenger Cars in the U.S. group on Facebook, there was some confusion/mention as to the 3rd car owned by Mr. Dickey, but it could very well have been another sleeper, possibly ex-NYC. Does anyone have info on which car Mr. Dickey owned?

Slide below taken of the car as GNW&B Rising Gorge by Owen Leander in Chicago on Saturday, 5/13/1967.

Sources:

1. Info on the ownership by Mr. Rockafellow, the locations of the car while in NJ, the resale in 1995, and the moves to Logan and East Logan come from said FB group, info on the lien comes from NP TellTale.

2. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

3. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

4. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 7:47 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
These cars came up in discussion in the Surviving Passenger Cars in the U.S. group on FB, plus a search of the Private Passenger Car Annual and a search here turned up additional info.

On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 11th Post on Page #3, Rainier Rails wrote:
************PART TWO OF TWO************

Here's what I can add:

Other Surviving Cars:

98. City of Lafayette (Lot #6038, Plan #3957J, 1927, 1DR-plr [26 seats], WAB, ex-Helena Modjeska)--sold to Wabash (1945) to N&W #700 (1964) to Clinchfield #114 White Oak to Seaboard #114 Blue Ridge to CSX #114 to New Georgia #114 to pvt. owner Ferdinand to New Orleans Public Belt City of New Orleans (refurbished by Pete Messina as chair-parlor)--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1612958 (Shawn Levy photo)

99. City of Peru (Lot #4862, Plan #3957L, 1925, 1DR-plr [26 seats], WAB, ex-Queen Anne)--sold to Wabash (1945) to N&W?? to unknown (seen at Comet Industries in Kansas City, MO) to New Orleans Public Belt (to be refurbished by Pete Messina as sleeper)

100. City of Wabash (Lot #6065, Plan #3957J, 1927, 1DR-plr [26 seats], WAB, ex-Embassy)--sold to Wabash (1945) to N&W?? to pvt. owner San Steban to Keokuk Jct. RY #1 Chief Keokuck [sic] to New Orleans Public Belt Louisiana (refurbished by Pete Messina as diner)--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1612956 (Shawn Levy photo)
On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 5th Post on Page #4, jmlaboda wrote:

"99. City of Peru... (to be refurbished by Pete Messina as sleeper)"

I wouldn't hold my breath on this one. Not only is the car in bad shape but the shake-up with the NOPB's management about two years ago have called into question not only the millions (plural) of dollars spent on "98. City of Lafayette" and "100. City of Wabash" but their possible future. Last I have heard the two refurbished cars being used for special occasions but no images of the cars have been posted since the shake-up and there was talk of them being sold off if a buyer or buyers could be found.

Does anyone have any more recent info on these ex-WAB cars???
On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 7th Post on Page #4, Rainier Rails wrote:
Found another thread on surviving heavyweights while doing a Google search for info on the 6-3 Glen Blair:

Cars in need of assitance: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19681

Some other cars mentioned in the thread:

132. City of Decatur (Lot #6038, Plan #3957K, 1927, 1DR-plr [26 seats], WAB, ex-Clara Morris)--sold to Wabash (1945) to N&W?? to Monticello RY Mus--see here: http://www.mrym.org/roster.html

137. Queen Mary (Lot #4862, Plan #3957I, 1925, 1DR-plr [26 seats], WAB)--sold to WAB (1945) to PRR #7125 (1949) to PC to restaurant in Wayne, NJ
On Thursday, January 9th, 2014, 5th Post on Page #7, Rainier Rails wrote:
191. City of Danville (Lot #6065, Plan #3957K, 1927/55, 1DR-plr [26 seats], WAB, ex-Diplomat)--sold to WAB (1945) to N&W?? (1964) to Washington D.C. Chapter NRHS Diplomat to Eastern Shore RY Mus (Parksley, VA)--see here: http://www.easternshorerailwaymuseum.org/, here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2678630 (Jonathan Ferraro photo), and here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2678610 (Jonathan Ferraro photo)
On Saturday, January 18th, 2014, 14th Post on Page #11, Rainier Rails wrote:
Another Two "Where Are They Now?" Cars:

The PRR extant passenger car list on http://www.altoonaworks.info/

...[section removed]...

137. Also according to the same list, PRR #7125 Queen Mary (Lot #4862, Plan #3957I, 1925, 1DR-plr [26 seats], WAB)--sold to WAB (1945) to PRR #7125 (1949) to PC to restaurant in Wayne, NJ was scrapped in late 2013--can anyone confirm this??
On Saturday, January 18th, 2014, 1st Post on Page #12, Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
On Thursday, October 2nd, 2014, 5th Post on Page #25, rlsteam wrote:
Is there any status change regarding "Embassy" aka "City of Wabash" aka "Chief Keokuck" aka "Louisiana," since January 2014 when an earlier post on this thread located it in New Orleans (having been put into auction several years ago by the New Orleans Public Belt)?
On Thursday, October 2nd, 2014, 6th Post on Page #25, Rainier Rails wrote:
Richard--

The last I knew all 3 of NOPB's ex-WAB City-series cars were in storage. Haven't heard anything more than that.
On Tuesday, April 19th, 2016, 8th Post on Page #32, Rainier Rails wrote:
Briggs lists that the City of Decatur was owned by the Illini RR Club before going to Monticello. It's also worth mentioning that it had been reconfigured in 1955 to a 37 seat parlor, as Plan #3957K (previously Plan #3957E, originally Plan #3957A). Does anyone know when Illini acquired this car (it was withheld from lease in August 1956), or when it was resold to Monticello? Thanks in advance!

98. Helena Modjeska (Lot #6038, Plan #3957A/D/A/E, 1/27, 26 seat-1DR, DL&W) to WAB (12/31/45), platform enclosed and renamed City of Lafayette (with 37? seats) in 4/54 (Plan #3957J), to N&W #700 Lafayette, sold at unknown date to Clinchfield RR #114 White Oak, to SBD #114 Blue Ridge, to CSX, resold at unknown date to New Georgia RR #114 Blue Ridge, resold 1996 to Fernandina Beach, FL Chamber of Commerce as SBD Fernandina (previously incorrectly listed as Ferdinand), resold 2001 to Greg Dodd, resold at unknown date to NOPB as City of New Orleans, then later (circa 2008) rebuilt by P. Messina to chair-parlor New Orleans, returned to open platform.

99. Queen Anne (Lot #4862, Plan #3957/C/G/H, 5/25, 26 seat-1DR, Black Diamond) to WAB (12/31/45), platform enclosed and renamed City of Peru (with 27? seats) in 12/56 (Plan #3957L), to N&W?, sold at unknown date to Nugent Bros. Roofing Co., resold at unknown date to Danville Industries, resold at unknown date to Smoky Hill RHS, later to storage at Comet Industries (exact ownership at this time unknown), resold circa 2008 to NOPB, plans were to have P. Messina rebuild it to a sleeper, plans cancelled with the shakeup in NOPB management and questions over millions spent on the other 2.

100. Embassy (Lot #6065, Plan #3957B, 4/27, 26 seat-1DR, Ambassador) to WAB (12/31/45), platform enclosed? (see end of car's history) and renamed City of Wabash (with 37? seats) in 5/54 (Plan #3957J), sold 1962 to James Seacrest-Nebraska RR Historical Society (unsure if Mr. Seacrest was a member of the NERHS or if he later resold the car to them), resold at unknown date to Fr. Steve Sandknop-Missouri, Santa Fe & Western RY Co. San Esteban (previously incorrectly listed as San Steban), Sandknop passed away 1976, car later seized by AT&SF due to lack of car storage payments by Sandknop family, resold at unknown date to Thomas Frawley as #SPRMX1 Embassy, resold circa 1983 to Keokuk Junction RY #1 Chief Keokuck [sic] (#800014) (unsure if #SPRMX1 was applied under ownership by Mr. Frawley or the KJRY), leased to GCRY (date range unknown), resold 2006 to NOPB, rebuilt 2008 by P. Messina to diner Louisiana, returned to open platform (if it had been enclosed, as Mr. Holzmeier indicated it may have always remained an open platform).

132. Clara Morris (Lot #6038, Plan #3957A/D/A/E, 1/27, 1DR-plr [26 seat], DL&W) to WAB (12/31/45), platform enclosed and renamed City of Decatur (with 37 seats) in 11/55 (Plan #3957K), to N&W?, sold at unknown date to Illini RR Club, resold at unknown date to Monticello RY Museum.

137. Queen Mary (Lot #4862, Plan #3957/A/G/I, 5/25, 1DR-plr [26 seat], Black Diamond) to WAB (12/31/45), off of Pullman lease 1/49 and resold to PRR 3/49 as #7125, to PC, sold at unknown date to Citro's 1890 restaurant in Wayne, NJ, scrapped in 2013.

191. Diplomat (Lot #6065, Plan #3957B, 4/27, 1DR-plr [26 seat], Ambassador) to WAB (12/31/45), platform enclosed and renamed City of Danville (with 37 seats) in 12/55 (Plan #3957K), to N&W?, sold at unknown date to Washington D.C. Chapter NRHS, resold at unknown date to Eastern Shore RY Museum, Parksley, VA, returned to open platform.

Sources:

1. Posts by James Holzmeier in the aforementioned FB group, including a page of the Wabash RHS newsletter of 1st quarter 1983 discussing the City of Wabash

2. Additional info was found here on RYPN in the following threads:

___2a. Wabash triplets

___2b. Wabash varnish anyone?

___2c. Lehigh Valley Queen Anne today?

___2d. Not exactly restoration

3. "Private Passenger Car Annual Volume 1: 1980" by David L. Briggs (RPC Publications, 1980)

4. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

5. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

6. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 7:43 am 
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On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 9th Post on Page #4, The Man wrote:
Just as a note, the Palm Lane is only on lease to IPH. The CNY Chapter did not want to let it go. Also of note in NY is the Glen Sidel?, located in Remsen, NY and from what I understand it is also going to IPH.

JJ-
On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 1st Post on Page #5, Rainier Rails wrote:
142. Glen Saddell (Lot #4974, Plan #3523A, 1926, 6C-3DR, SAL)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby-Darby Wood Products (1967) to Adirondack Scenic to Iowa Pacific-SLRG--see here: http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=128&t=69309&p=772898 and here: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=390065 (Matt Giardino photo)
On Friday, January 10th, 2014, 6th Post on Page #7, traingeek8223 wrote:
Add a couple that are hanging around here in upstate NY:

Lot 4974 6 compartment 3 Drawing room "Glen Saddell", Remsen NY: Currently owned by Remsen Development Corporation, ex Adirondack Railway/Adirondack Scenic MW9 (never used). Sale to Iowa Pacific pending.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jsgilligan/6194637211/

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ALCO Historical & Technical Society
On Friday, January 10th, 2014, 8th Post on Page #7, Rainier Rails wrote:
Thanks, Matt, for the additional info on and photos of Glen Saddell!

142. Glen Saddell--top of page 5
On Sunday, January 12th, 2014, 12th Post on Page #9, Rainier Rails wrote:
I wonder...

Besides SOU #2523 Glen Summit, Glen Saddell (still pending), PRR #8836 John Greenleaf Whittier, and Palm Lane (on long term lease from CNY Chapter), are there any additional heavyweight sleepers that have been acquired by Iowa Pacific/SLRG, either already listed as a survivor in this thread or otherwise??
On Sunday, January 12th, 2014, 14th Post on Page #9, jmlaboda wrote:

This is from the roster presented in the Trains magazine article, June 2013. A couple of the names don't show up in Tom Madden's Pullman Car Construction Records...

154. SLRG 9166 Poplar Summit
192. SLRG 9167 Donizetti
36. SLRG 9168 John Greenleaf Whittier
SLRG 9169 Euopolis Not its Pullman name
SLRG 9170 University Club
27. SLRG 9171 Glen Alta
91. SLRG 9172 Glen Summit
152. SLRG 9173 Lake Terrell
151. SLRG 9174 Central Park
153. SLRG 9175 Nightstar
SLRG 9180 Country Club Not its Pullman name???
89. SLRG Palm Lane
71. SLRG Woodland
142. SLRG Glen Saddell
15. SLRG Dover Fort
On Saturday, January 18th, 2014, 15th Post on Page #11, Rainier Rails wrote:
Another Mystery Car:

Painted as NYO&W Chenango, which according to Jerry LaBoda's website, is actually one of PRR's Square-series Plan #3523 7C-2DR sleepers, of which twelve were built. PRR acquired six of the twelve at the 12/31/1948 divestiture (as #8556-#8561), one of which (#8561 Times Square) has already been listed (line item #62) as extant in Dennison, OH. Of the other six, one (Franklin Square) was sold (written as "transferred" in the CCR database) to the NYC in 1958, but it does not show up in Terry Link's NYC passenger car roster--scrapped? One (Washington Square) was sold to Royal American Shows in 1958. The other four were sold to scrap dealers between 1960 and 1966.

Does anybody know the identity of the Chenango, and what group owned/owns this car?? Current whereabouts/status??

a. http://rr-fallenflags.org/nyow/nyow-cheo-akg.jpg (Karl Geffchen photo)

b. http://rr-fallenflags.org/nyow/nyow-cheo-bkg.jpg (Karl Geffchen photo)
On Saturday, January 18th, 2014, 2nd Post on Page #12, PLATFORMCAR wrote:
Rainer Rails ( and others )

In regards to the car mentioned as the NYSW Chenango, I believe this car is the "Herald Square" and is owned by a gentleman who I believe lives on the car in Ringoes NJ on the BR&W. This car perhaps might hold the record for the longest restoration to Amtrak service, as I know this project continues on now for likely over 20 plus years...( a true testament to his desire to run ...)

The car has had an open platform added to one end and the interior has been significantly altered from its 6C-3DR configuration... ( car was not built with open platform shown )

Last I heard the owner was having a set of OSH trucks rebuilt...
On Sunday, January 19th, 2014, 4th Post on Page #12, Rainier Rails wrote:
Thanks, Dean, for the info on Herald Square!

262. Herald Square (Lot #6290, Plan #3523C, 1929, 6C-3DR, PRR)--sold to PRR #8556 (1948) to pvt. owner as NYO&W Chenango (Ringoes, NJ)
On Sunday, January 19th, 2014, 5th Post on Page #12, jmlaboda wrote:
I hate saying it but I do not believe that the NYO&W Chenango car shown in the images posted by Dean is the same car that previously had been lettered NYO&W Chenango... the car in Dean's shots is a business car that I do not believe was rebuilt from a 6 Comparment - 3 Drawing Room car shown in the images linked to below, there are just too many consistence:

http://rr-fallenflags.org/nyow/nyow-cheo-akg.jpg
http://rr-fallenflags.org/nyow/nyow-cheo-bkg.jpg

It would take a considerable amount of work to rebuilt a sleeper car into a riveted side business or private car and even with a long target date... the work involved would take a good size shop force to accomplish it, not just a couple of people. And considering that the side sheets on the private car look original I doubt that the owner took the car completely apart and then proceeded to reapply new side sheeting to match the business car configuration.

While I have no idea what the history of the business car is (have gone through what links I have on a non-rebuilt, non-modernized, business cars and have not come up with a possible history, I suspect that there is yet an answer out there as to what the car use to be. As for the Old & Weary lettering and Chenango name on both cars both were likely applied by the owner for sentimental reasons and it may be that the owner of the business car formerly owned the 6-3 sleeper, which could help to explain the use of the names on both.

I still have more pages to check, along with a few other references. Hopefully the real history to the private car can be found. Better still, hopefully both the private car's history and the history for the 6-3 car can be found so that both can be properly accounted for. (Chenango was the name of one of the counties that the O&W ran through.)
On Sunday, January 19th, 2014, 6th Post on Page #12, Howard P. wrote:
It's the same car. The owner has done some serious alteration to it, keeping to Pullman practices- remember that Pullman would do major reconfiguration to cars that totally changed them. I was inside this car in 1970, and he'd already been working on it for a couple of years. 40-plus years of restoration, not 20!
On Sunday, April 13th, 2014, 13th Post on Page #17, Rainier Rails wrote:
As this thread has continued to identify surviving cars, I have noticed that there were several cars that had been acquired by two different private owners: Jack Ferris and Ruben Darby. Many of these cars had remained in Pullman ownership and pool service after the 12/31/1948 divestiture. However, at this time, a few of the cars acquired by either owner have yet to surface as being extant. Does anyone know the whereabouts of these cars?

Below are listed all the cars I have noted as acquired by either owner.

Ruben Darby-Darby Wood Products owned:

Known Survivors:

142. Glen Saddell (Lot #4974, Plan #3523A, 1926, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967) to Adirondack RY Company (when?) to Adirondack Scenic as #MW9 to Remsen Development (when?) sale to Iowa Pacific (SLRG) pending
On Sunday, April 13th, 2014, 14th Post on Page #17, traingeek8223 wrote:
Rainier

The Glen Saddell came to the Adirondack Railway in 1979. I do not know where it was before that. It was in relatively good condition with fresh exterior paint (yellow) and only really needing re-upholstery and cleaning. I believe the need for it was diminished with the arrival of the LW ex C&O/B&O 10-6 sleeper "Shenandoah" (and the real lack of need for sleeper service given the railroads schedule), so it just sat. At some point it lost its north end coupler. It was sold with all the other ADK equipment at the liquidation auction in 1981 to a private individual (name escapes me) who never arranged to remove it from the property. It then sat in Thendara until 1992 when the Adirondack Centennial Railroad started up operation. It was then shuffled around the yard for a few years. Upon the owners death, his estate donated it to the Adirondack Scenic (I believe this was around 96 or 97). Around this time it was moved to Big Moose for storage to clear up the Thendara yard for track work and expansion. It was given to Remsen and moved there in 2006 I believe (it's brakes even functioned even though the last COTS was 1970!). Too much info I know but what the heck.
On Monday, April 29th, 2019, 3rd Post on Page #40, Rainier Rails wrote:
216. Boston (Lot #4211, Plan #2502A, 1914, pvt. car, NP)--sold to NP #6 (12/22/1941) to Jefferson River (2/29/1956) sold to William Warren Nugent and Arthur E. Pew III as Going Nowhere & Back RY (GNW&B) Rising Gorge (4/2/1966) resold to L.V. "Rocky" Rockafellow Alexauker (circa 1970) located in Stockton, NJ next to the Chenango (ex-Herald Square) (line item #262) owned by Edward J. Joscelyn, moved to Ringoes, NJ, in 1974, sold to Don Lee (circa 1980) who worked for the Indiana & Ohio RY, hence the move to Ohio (unsure exactly where in the Buckeye State), sold to unknown/private owner (1995) and then located at Logan, OH, reportedly moved to the HVSR at East Logan, OH. Has this car actually moved in the last few years, or is this a conflation of locations, i.e., Logan = East Logan, and the car sits in the same spot it has now for some time?

Mr. Rockafellow, Mr. Joscelyn, and Mr. Jim Dickey pooled their resources to purchase 3 cars in circa 1970, with each taking ownership of 1 of the 3. On the Surviving Passenger Cars in the U.S. group on Facebook, there was some confusion/mention as to the 3rd car owned by Mr. Dickey, but it could very well have been another sleeper, possibly ex-NYC. Does anyone have info on which car Mr. Dickey owned?

While checking the 3rd Volume of the Railway Passenger Car Annual (1976), I noticed a listing for David Durkoop & Ed Joscelyn.

The RPCA lists that Mr. Durkoop and Mr. Joscelyn owned both the Chenango and also the lightweight PRR sleeper buffet lounge observation #8419 Mountain View.

In the NP TellTale group, in the same thread regarding the Boston, the original poster, David, further remarked that Mr. Rockafellow acquired the Boston at a sheriff sale (an interesting further backstory there!), and then further said that Mr. Dickey and Mr. Joscelyn also owned the Glen Saddell, but that unlike the Boston and Chenango, it was never moved to Stockton/Ringoes. He also mentioned another person was involved, a Mr. Geoffrey Germond. Mr. Rockafellow resold the Boston to Mr. Lee after having had heart surgery.

Sources:

1. Further info from NP TellTale.

2. "Railway Passenger Car Annual: Volume III - 1976" by W. David Randall and Zenon R. Hansen (RPC Publications, 1976)

3. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

4. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

5. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 8:38 am 
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Another Survivor:

447. As posted by Jeremy Jones in Abandoned Rails, this car along with several others was formerly located in Little Creek, VA, but has been moved to Virginia Beach, VA. There are no discernible markings of any kind; it is a 12-1 sleeper (or perhaps a 12-1-1?).

https://www.facebook.com/groups/abandonedrails/permalink/2493846613982172/

I did find one mention of this car on page #3 of the following thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42045

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 7:23 pm 
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The above car is not a previously unknown survivor, but is actually:

141. Haselton (Lot #3814, Plan #2410, 1910/40, 12S-1DR, PRR)--Tourist #1527--sold to SAL MofW #70673 (1947) to CAGY to Bay Coast RY-Tidewater Chapter NRHS (TWCX)

Line item #447 is hereby void (until used by another newfound survivor).

Thanks to Jacob Carey for noticing my error.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:31 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:29 am
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Rainier Rails wrote:
Matt wrote:
Don't know if this has been answered but yes, the Lambs Club still survives. It is at the Dennison Ohio Railroad Museum.
Source-http://dennisondepot.org/new_website/equipment/

Thanks, Matt, for the info!

441. Lambs Club (Lot #6289, Plan #3992, 1929, plr [13]-buf-din [12]-lng [16], PRR)--sold to PRR #7007 (1945) to MofW #492061 (1956) sold to Midwest RY Historical Foundation (MRHF) (unknown date) resold to Dennison Railroad Depot Museum, Dennison, OH (unknown date)


You're welcome.

I have some more info on the Lambs Club for you. It was stored on a siding next to the old Solon, Ohio EL depot with an Erie baggage car #452. I'm not sure when or why they were moved there. They appear on the siding in a 1970 aerial photo. The cars were purchased by Robert Yartz who was proposing to build an antiques museum. The Solon Historical Society says the depot was going to be museum, however then say the cars were going to house it. Yartz had the property parcel of the depot and some of the siding near the building transferred to him 1/1/1989 (source Cuyahoga County Fiscal Office). He moved the cars closer to the building in April 1989. Unfortunately his museum never got off the ground.

Both the Lambs Club and baggage #452 were acquired by the Midwest Railway Historical Foundation as a donation in 1991. In 1998 the Lambs Club was sold to the Dennison Railroad Museum. (source MRHF Sept/Oct 1998 Newsletter.)

You can see the cars on the siding in this 1980's photograph. https://www.flickr.com/photos/forlornph ... 624998785/

I attached a photo from the Solon Historical Society showing Yartz, the 452 and Lambs Club.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:04 am 

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Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Alas, I'm afraid to say, some people have provided me with the ultimate fate of the 6-3 Pullman Glen Blair. This is from a Facebook site called "The Pullman Company."

I put in an inquiry there on February 21, 2020:

Quote:
Something for the detectives here--

Quite a few years ago now, perhaps as late as the 1980s or early 1990s, there was a car repair shop in Brunswick, Md. Among the cars there was heavyweight 6c-3dr "Glen Blair," in Pullman's postwar two tone grey. I also got to go inside the car, which was quite intact, although it had a bit of peeling paint inside, likely due to condensation in cold weather.

I've been told the car made it out, becoming part of a restaurant, but I've never been able to get confirmation.

Does anybody really know what became of her?


The answers came back as follows:

Quote:
Michael Brown From a reliable source: the car, along with a CB&Q office car, were moved to Leesburg Florida and put on display next to their depot. Both were scrapped in the late 90’s/early 2000’s. My friend has a few slides of the cars there. He will get them scanned and then we can see them.


Quote:
Michael Brown I, too, am both saddened and angered by the mindless scrapping of cars that are perfectly restorable. Stay tuned for good news soon regarding prevention of future occurrences


Quote:
Don Whatley The people who parked the cars in Leesburg cut large holes in the sides of both cars for walkthrough. The Pullman 6-3 sleeper had it's vestibule chopped off. However there were numerous possibilities.


Quote:
Maunsel White I saw the CB&Q car in Leesburg in the early 1990's. It was restorable at that time. Had a nice deep platform. This picture from better days.


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:10 am 
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On Friday, November, 16th, 2018, 12th Post on Page #36, Rainier Rails wrote:
Another Survivor:

There was a post the other day in the Surviving Passenger Cars group on Facebook that indicates that the following car may indeed survive, still in CSX MofW service. The window pattern of the car whose picture was posted does indeed seem to match that of this car during its tenure as a coach on the ACL.

440. Donner Lake (Lot #6010, Plan #3970/C, 1928/37, kitchen-dorm-baggage, ex-K-100, Cuba/Forty Niner)--sold to ACL and rebuilt to coach #1131 (1942) to SCL, to MofW (unknown date) to SBD to CSX

This would be only one of a handful of the streamlined "Betterment" cars rebuilt during the overall 1930's/40's rebuild programs which has turned up as still surviving today.
Further update: this car was donated by CSX to the Southern Appalachia Railway Museum last year.

https://www.facebook.com/secretcityrailroad/posts/2827656263944796

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Last edited by Rainier Rails on Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:27 am 
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On Friday, August 29th, 2014, 4th Post on Page #22, Rainier Rails wrote:
On Sunday, October 3rd, 2010, 11th Post on Page #2, M.J. Kershner wrote:
C'mon Kurt, have you forgotten George had Traffic Club? FWIW it's in the yard in Thorpe, for sale by the R&N.. End door is open.

I was in it when George was still alive. The upper berths are intact, and the seat-backs are still in the section walls. Otherwise it pretty well lost its' ambience during years of MOW service.
On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 10th Post on Page #3, Rainier Rails wrote:

8. Traffic Club (Lot #6274, Plan #3989N, 1929, 8S-buf-sol-lng-obs, PRR)--sold to PRR #8627 (1948) to pvt. owner to RBMN (reported for sale)

More info from a thread from March 2004: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8831
K.R. Bell wrote:
Here's an all-time equipment roster of Rail Tours I've compiled, 1962-2001; sorry its so jumbled in email format, but here 'tis:

Rail Tours, Inc. All-Time Equipment Roster (c.1962-2001) George M. Hart, Jim Thorpe, Pa.

ROLLING STOCK – PASSENGER AND FREIGHT EQUIPMENT

27043 Pullman heavyweight Pullman, September 1929 [car length?]
Former Pullman Traffic Club. Constructed in Pullman lot # 6274 to Plan #3989A, 8-section, buffet-lounge-sleeper car. Sold to the Pennsylvania Railroad in 12/1948 as #7008. Car withdrawn by Pullman lease and stored in September 1957. Assigned to M-O-W service by PRR, interior fixtures stripped and car painted yellow, number #492388 assigned in June 1959. Ownership transferred to Penn Central as #27043 on February 1, 1968, and to Conrail April 1, 1976. Purchased by RTI in March 1977 for $3150.00. Transferred from Hollidaysburg to Jim Thorpe 1977. Stored in Jim Thorpe, Pa.
So, therefore:

8. Traffic Club (Lot #6274, Plan #3989N, 1929, 8S-buf-sol-lng-obs, PRR)--sold to PRR #8627 (1948) to MofW #492388 (1959) to PC #27043 (1968) to CR #27043 (1976) to George Hart-Rail Tours Incorporated (1977) to RBMN (reported for sale)

Kurt lists the Traffic Club as PRR #7008, not #8627, which is the number listed for the Traffic Club by Spear. Spear lists the #7008 as the Lawyers Club (Lot #6289, Plan #3992H, 1929, buf-diner-lng [14]-plr [12]).

Questions:

Did the Traffic Club as MofW #27043 receive Conrail reporting marks, or did it still have PC reporting marks when sold to George Hart-RTI in 1977?

Was this car actually sold to RBMN?
Update: this car was scrapped, I am assuming in-place, sometime in the last decade, no further info on exactly when.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:52 am 
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On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 7th Post on Page #4, Rainier Rails wrote:
Found another thread on surviving heavyweights while doing a Google search for info on the 6-3 Glen Blair:

Cars in need of assitance: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19681

Some other cars mentioned in the thread:

138. Richard Dale (Lot #4943, Plan #3410A, 1926, 12S-1DR, PRR)--sold to PRR #8917 (1948) to storage on Everett RR
Update: this car was reported to have been scrapped in 2009.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:02 am 
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On Tuesday, January 7th, 2014, 8th Post on Page #6, Tim Andrews wrote:
The TVRM cars (in addition to the two already mentioned at TVRM)

Sophocles 12S-1DR –CPT 10-12/21 2411C 4824 TC 3154 Sou Bag 9/53 TVRM
On Wednesday, June 18th, 2014, 12th Post on Page #19, Rainier Rails wrote:
166. 12S-1C-1DR Sophocles (Lot #4624, Plan #2411C, 1921) converted in 1951 to 14S TC #3154 sold in 1953 to SOU and converted to baggage-express #6464 to TVRM
Update: this car was reported to have been scrapped in March of this year.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:01 am 
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On Thursday, January 23rd, 2014, 3rd Post on Page #13, Rainier Rails wrote:
Additional Mystery Cars:

SSW MW #96210--according to Jerry LaBoda's website (listed under #90210, window pattern confirms it is the same car in both photos), this is the Mt. Washburn (Lot #4816, Plan #3521, 1924, 10S-lng-obs)--sold to SSW (1948)--the confusion with this one is that the car in the two linked photos doesn't resemble a Plan #3521 car!!--can anyone clarify??

a. In Texarkana in 1975: http://abpr.railfan.net/january00/01-01-00/sswmw_98210_hw_pullman_12-x_texarkana_1975.jpg (Tim O'Connor photo) (click once to enlarge)

b. In Denver in January 2012: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2918031 (Alex Gillman photo)
On Thursday, January 23rd, 2014, 6th Post on Page #13, jmlaboda wrote:
Definitely not a Plan 3521 car, will get that fixed. The Pullman Heavyweight books lists this as being Mt. Washburn but it obviously wasn't. Wonder which Plan 2410 12s-1dr was given to the SSW?
On Thursday, January 23rd, 2014, 7th Post on Page #13, Rainier Rails wrote:
Regarding the identity of the #96210--

According to the CCR database, the Cotton Belt only acquired two 12S-1DR sleepers, both of which were Plan #2410:

Forestport (Lot #3881)

Ossining (Lot #3949)

Both were withdrawn from Pullman lease in May 1954.
On Thursday, January 23rd, 2014, 8th Post on Page #13, jmlaboda wrote:
Quote:
Forestport (Lot #3881)
To SSW MW 96209.
Quote:
Ossining (Lot #3949)
To SSW MW 96211.
On Friday, January 24th, 2014, 9th Post on Page #13, Rainier Rails wrote:
The plot thickens...

If the Forestport and Ossining became SSW MW #96209 and #96211 respectively, then where did the #96210 come from??
On Tuesday, September 23rd, 2014, 7th Post on Page #24, Rainier Rails wrote:
Another Survivor:

Back on page #13, these 2 cars came up in the discussion, but at the time, neither was identified as being extant:

As listed on David Coscia's website, the 1st car is indeed still around:

364. Forestport (Lot #3881, Plan #2410, 1911, 12S-1DR, NYC)--sold to SSW (1948) to MofW #96209 (1954) sold to Cotton Belt RHS-Arkansas RR Museum (Pine Bluff) (when??)

April 2012: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3015657 (Allan Williams, Jr. photo)
295. Update: this car in Denver as the #96210 was indeed the Ossining, which was confirmed while the car was being scrapped last month.

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Last edited by Rainier Rails on Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:59 am 
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On Wednesday, January 8th, 2014, 12th Post on Page #6, Rainier Rails wrote:
174. Point Richmond (Lot #4961, Plan #3584A, 1926, 10S-2DR, CNO&TP)--sold to CNO&TP #3509 (1948) converted to business car SOU #21 to research car #R-1 to NS #31 to VMT--see here: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3284639 (Jim Owens photo) (note the bay window)
On Wednesday, January 8th, 2014, 13th Post on Page #6, MRLX1020 wrote:
NS #8 TENNESSEE -currently for sale by owner, stored at Gateway Rail Services in Madison, IL. Car was in the process of being upgraded for Amtrak operation. It's Southern OSH tread brake trucks were sold to another PV owner, so they are not with the car anymore.

National Park (Lot #4885, Plan #3951L, 1925, bag-buf-plr, SOU)--sold to SOU and converted to business car #9 (1945) to #8 to #5 to #8 to NS #8 Tennessee--I think I have the numbering sequence right--does anyone know the current status of this car?? I haven't found any recent photos.
On Wednesday, January 8th, 2014, 15th Post on Page #6, jmlaboda wrote:
Was SOU 5 before becoming NS 8, per NS business car diagrams.
On Wednesday, June 18th, 2014, 12th Post on Page #19, Rainier Rails wrote:
174. CNO&TP 10S-2DR #3509 Point Richmond (Lot #4961, Plan #3584A, 1926) converted to business car #21 to research #R-1 to NS track geometry car #31 to VMT (200?)

175. Baggage-buffet club lounge barber shop National Park (Lot #4885, Plan #3951L, 1925) sold in 1945 to SOU and converted to business car #9 renumbered to #8 renumbered to #5 renumbered to #8 to NS #8 Tennessee sold to private ownership and stored at MRLX
On Monday, September 1st, 2014, 9th Post on Page #22, Tim Andrews wrote:
It is this car that became Norfolk Southern #8 Tennessee.
According to the NS office car diagram book NS 8 is an office car. Originally Pullman “Point Richmond” then office car 21 (3/26/56) then renumbered 6 (10/26/70) and finally 5 (8/10/72). It became NS 8.
NS 11 was a Pullman car 1708 then Dinnette Coach 3101 (9/28/48) to Office car 11 (x Shell) at Hayne 3-22-63 renumbered 6 (8/3/72) then was converted to 8 Bedroom sleeper 16 at Hayne (10/80) and was named Tennessee
On Monday, September 1st, 2014, 10th Post on Page #22, Rainier Rails wrote:
So, therefore, the NS #8 is the:

174. CNO&TP 10S-2DR #3509 Point Richmond (Lot #4961, Plan #3584A, 1926) converted to business car #21 (1956) renumbered #6 (1970) renumbered #5 (1972) to NS #8 Tennessee sold to Donald Grant (2000) for sale and stored at Gateway
Update: as posted back in January, http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44098, the ex-NS #8 Tennessee (nee-Point Richmond) has been acquired by TVRM.

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