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 Post subject: Cavan and Leitrim No. 3
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:18 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:07 pm
Posts: 1069
Location: Leicester, MA.
So after some thought I came to the conclusion that the recent thread on the New Jersey Museum of Transportation might not be the appropriate thread for this question, but what's the deal with the Irish tank engine that they have in storage? I've heard rumors that the West Clare was to repatriate it to Ireland, but I'm not sure of the reality of said rumors. So at the end of the day, what's the deal with it? Is someone actually trying to repatriate it, or is there a need to find that engine a new home?

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 Post subject: Re: Cavan and Leitrim No. 3
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:40 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:28 am
Posts: 333
Location: Ipswich, UK
The repatriation of "Lady Edith" to the museum at Dromod seems to have gone remarkably quiet this side of the Atlantic as well.
I found a mention on one of the UK Forums from 2016 which stated that the Museum had supposedly purchased the loco and "three items of rolling stock" in New Jersey, but that seems to have been the last mention of it all anywhere. Not quite sure how financially well-off the Dromod museum is, but if they had been purchased, I would have thought that an appeal would have been made to raise the shipping costs to get them back to Ireland.
There is quite a lot of interest in the Irish narrow gauge lines in the UK, so financial support would be readilly forthcoming, I would imagine. The Museum have recently had an 0-6-0T professionally restored to operating condition which returned to Ireland earlier this year. Mind you, it did appear to take 22 years to get the job done, from what I have seen mentioned elsewhere......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGXhGHk4Zwg

.

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 Post subject: Re: Cavan and Leitrim No. 3
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:11 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:01 pm
Posts: 117
I had looked into this a while back. Aside from some comments on steamlocomotive.info that cannot be verified, this is all I could find https://www.pressreader.com/uk/steam-railway-uk/20170421/281883003212770. The article is behind a paywall but gives enough in the intro to get the idea. It's a two year old article stating that the US wants to charge tax on the sale of the locomotive and the West Clare was fighting it.

Even with this, I fully agree with 70000 as there is not a word of this that I could find on the West Clare Railways website. If they were suddenly confronted with having to pay tax, wouldn't they be seeking donations?

As far as I know, the Dromod group has nothing to do with this project.

At this point, I'm guessing if you approached the NJTM with a check in hand they might talk to you.

Roger


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 Post subject: Re: Cavan and Leitrim No. 3
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:23 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:18 am
Posts: 571
Location: Wall, NJ
> It's a two year old article stating that the US wants to charge tax on the sale of the locomotive and the West Clare was fighting it.

The issue had been tied, supposedly, at one point, to the idea that the Lady Edith and her train were donated to NJMT so the theory is that it should be donated to another organization rather than sold for a hefty profit. If a change in NJMT management was ever made, the idea of donating it to a viable organization is the option that really should be investigated.

As background, there is an old topic here on RyPN on the Lady Edith. In short, it was brought over by Edgar T. Mead, Jr., Oliver Jensen, and Roger E.M. "Frimbo" Whitaker, aka "The Lady Edith Society". Each, over time, donated their shares to NJMT with Edgar I think being the last.

She last ran in 1997 or so, but needed some front sheet work and new flues. The new NJ boiler laws that came along in 2001 side lined our efforts to put her back under steam, not so much for boiler condition as it was the difficulty in inspecting the boiler. The side tanks would have hampered barrel access for UT inspection as would the lower sheets of the firebox end of the boiler hidden solidly behind the typically British plate side frame. Removal of tanks, cab, and boiler just for an inspection was more than we wanted to bite off at the time, although she really did need new side tanks which leaked badly. The copper firebox and iron boiler were perfectly acceptable here in the US where she ran for 30 or so years.

She was a fun engine to run, and quite powerful which surprised some people. Hate to see it leave NJ, but that may be what is best here. Joining Nancy might be the best option.


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 Post subject: Re: Cavan and Leitrim No. 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:57 am 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 12:20 pm
Posts: 168
JR May wrote:

She was a fun engine to run, and quite powerful which surprised some people. Hate to see it leave NJ, but that may be what is best here. Joining Nancy might be the best option.


The Lady Edith was a good runner and quite a bit quicker than the Shay! My complaints were the typical British accommodations for the engine crew. A cramped cab and no place to sit down! A tiny fire door made firing “interesting.” But with that copper fire box it was a dream steamer.

Keith


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 Post subject: Re: Cavan and Leitrim No. 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:07 pm
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Location: Leicester, MA.
Obviously I've been putting some thought into it, but at this point I tend to doubt that Lady Edith is going to return to Ireland anytime soon... However, I still believe that she can be a good teaching tool, especially when compared to locomotives that represent standard American practices of the period in which she was built, if not slightly later. If you were to cosmetically restore Lady Edith and display her alongside a typical American design, you could readily educate people as to the engineering and aesthetic differences between locomotives built on two different sides of the Atlantic, the pros and cons of either design, and delve into the greater question of WHY these differences in design and appearance developed.

At the same time, for kicks and giggles, go through and do a mechanical survey to better understand what she would need if someone wanted to steam her again... That would mean you'd probably have to pull her boiler so you can go through that, but that additionally opens up the opportunity to go in and do some in-depth work on her. It's been brought up that the side tanks could use work, so why not take that opportunity to either repair or replace the tanks? There's so many other things that could be done that if someone could get their hands on her, it might not be a bad idea to at least put some thought into what else could be done when Lady Edith is in pieces. Of course none of this can happen so long as she's stuck out of sight in storage.

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 Post subject: Re: Cavan and Leitrim No. 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:21 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:18 am
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Location: Wall, NJ
If talking comparisons, on a somewhat comical note, but not too far off base, I enjoy working on British cars, usually MGAs, but Hillmans, Jaguars, etc have fallen into the mix. My lesson learned, having worked on the Lady Edith, a British built steam locomotive of 1887, and a Jaguar XJ-6 of 1987 (last of the real Jags), is that they were remarkably similar in their design, construction, and performance. Both ran hot. Both were difficult to perform standard maintenance on. Both were not terribly comfortable for the operator. Both leaked where they should not leak. On the positive side, both had remarkable handling and were fleet of foot which makes it all worthwhile. Again, just a personal observation if making comparisons. Don’t limit yourself to what you compare things to.

Should note, I have the data here someplace, but the Lady is actually on her third boiler. I have to dig this out at some point, but at least one was somewhat experimental and failed. Again, it would be interesting to document this a bit. The current boiler dates to somewhere in the mid-1920s if I recall correctly. 1927 sticks with me but would need to verify that.


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 Post subject: Re: Cavan and Leitrim No. 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:54 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
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Location: southeastern USA
If I recall correctly, removal of boiler from frame and overhauling both separately was SOP in the UK. Many of the same class ended up with parts of various other locomotives as a result.

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 Post subject: Re: Cavan and Leitrim No. 3
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:05 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
Posts: 878
Location: NJ
My son and I were just discussing the Pine Creek situation on the phone. He made the suggestion that perhaps a good home for Lady Edith would be Busch Gardens in Williamsburg, VA. They have propane fired steam that represents various countries; Lady Edith would fit right in. We both wonder if Busch Gardens is aware that this engine MAY be available.


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 Post subject: Re: Cavan and Leitrim No. 3
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:33 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 2323
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
EDM wrote:
My son and I were just discussing the Pine Creek situation on the phone. He made the suggestion that perhaps a good home for Lady Edith would be Busch Gardens in Williamsburg, VA. They have propane fired steam that represents various countries; Lady Edith would fit right in. We both wonder if Busch Gardens is aware that this engine MAY be available.


Yes, but there is a great difference in operating expense between a historic engine and a Crown engine. And you are going to use up the historic fabric of the engine in daily service.

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 Post subject: Re: Cavan and Leitrim No. 3
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:03 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
Posts: 878
Location: NJ
I'm not trying to be snarky here, but the Disney engines aren't exactly Crowns or Cagneys, either. I believe Disney even changed wheel arrangements, adding lead or trailing trucks and tenders.

My understanding is that there has already been some scrapping taking place at Pine Creek. Being used as an amusement park engine, historic or otherwise, is a far better fate than the torch.


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 Post subject: Re: Cavan and Leitrim No. 3
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:32 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 2323
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
EDM wrote:
I'm not trying to be snarky here, but the Disney engines aren't exactly Crowns or Cagneys, either. I believe Disney even changed wheel arrangements, adding lead or trailing trucks and tenders.

My understanding is that there has already been some scrapping taking place at Pine Creek. Being used as an amusement park engine, historic or otherwise, is a far better fate than the torch.


Yes, I know, "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."

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