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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:11 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
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That article brings up an interesting question. I note that there is a bit of possibly-intentional 'cognitive dissonance' between the statistics for actual visitors and the use of 'statewide' demographics for the large percentage of "in-state" visitors. Almost certainly from the numbers given, this includes the New York City area, which is neither particularly representative of the 'rest' of the state or necessarily productive of large numbers of 'diverse' people currently interested in or willing to come to the Adirondacks.

This leads me to wonder whether ASR has, or is planning on establishing, a liaison or active participation in ADI or ANCA. Or has developed approaches to appeal to potential 'diverse' groups, provide amenities to cater to their desires or choices, etc. I agree that this represents a potentially enormous untapped market. Increased language accommodation? Assisted daycare facilities to help with small children who can't cost-effectively 'participate' in the ride itself?

Of course, it remains to be seen what the 'usual suspects' who have supported the trail idea will do to support ... or try to torpedo ... a "diversity initiative" that might bring large numbers of ... you know, urban people ... to walk up and down behind their properties. Perhaps I'm being less than kind to them, based on what I've seen them already do and say. It's almost worth pushing the diversity initiative high and far just to watch the fun and then keep public attention focused on their behavior...

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:40 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:15 pm
Posts: 175
Location: At large
Quote:
You also have to understand that there seems to be an attitude up there - particularly in Placid - that the 'railroad had its chance and didn't deliver', fair or not, so people are willing to let the trail concept have a shot even if the numbers are fuzzy, preservation law is present, and the studies can be severely flawed. It's just such a difficult place to do any business and keep it going, people always keep looking for something new to turn it around. That created the initial local enthusiasm for the railroad, now it's the trail, but it's symptomatic of the situation.


Lake Placid is too big to care about the plight of the railroad. They feel they don't need train loads of people coming into town because they are already a word class destination without it. Saranac Lake and Tupper Lake on the other hand need a serious shot in the arm and both see the trail as the answer. Tupper has been waiting so long for the train to arrive that they have given up hope and think the trail will be their saving grace. Saranac Lake has more political pressure to support the trail, since number one citizen Lee Keet wants the railroad gone (snowmobiles will be next, but no body wants to believe that). Sadly the business in Saranac have stood up in support of the railroad because they know the good it brings, but the mayor turned a blind eye.

Quote:
Of course, it remains to be seen what the 'usual suspects' who have supported the trail idea will do to support ... or try to torpedo ... a "diversity initiative" that might bring large numbers of ... you know, urban people ... to walk up and down behind their properties. Perhaps I'm being less than kind to them, based on what I've seen them already do and say. It's almost worth pushing the diversity initiative high and far just to watch the fun and then keep public attention focused on their behavior..


It has been mentioned before, but is being ignored buy the people pushing the agenda, that all of the residents along the south shore of Lake Clear that adjoin the corridor have clauses in their deeds that state when the railroad is no longer a railroad and the tracks are removed that the property reverts back to them. The state claims they gained title to the corridor through eminent domain when they purchased the property from Penn Central and that extinguishes all of those clauses, but no one can seem to find proof of this process and all evidence seems to point to the state purchasing a 118 mile railroad. They also think that they have solidified this stance by changing the definition of "travel corridor" to include recreational trails. I have a hunch though that the fine folks of Lake Clear are just biding their time waiting for the rails to come up before starting their own battle.

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:08 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2815
Location: Northern Illinois
J3a-614 wrote:
Dennis, there are beavers there. You should know as well as anybody here that roadbed maintenance is the same whether the roadbed supports a railroad, a trail, or a road.



But it's not. With the railroad track in place it severely limits heavy equipment access, unless there is access from off the ROW, which I assume there is not, since they are patching together track to get equipment down to the site of the washout. If there was no track, they'd only have to drive a bucket loader down the trail to fix the problem. Likewise, since the trail is more forgiving of vertical curves, rather than haul in fill, they could just scrape the top of the embankment for the needed fill.

In addition, problem areas could be opened up and spanned with those lightweight pony truss trail bridges, provided the bridges don't need an E-72 Cooper's rating.

Now, it appears this gentleman has a definite vested interest in seeing the track go away, but as far as the cost to maintain the embankment with trail only vs. trail and rail, his statement is not incorrect.

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:04 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:55 pm
Posts: 985
Location: Warren, PA
The reversionary issue is possible, but much of that battle has just been fought in Indiana; ie. a railroad abandoned through the process, picked up by a state agency, operated, and then wanted to convert to a trail, but never was really a re-certified 'common carrier' post abandonment, and now wants protection of right-of-way reversion under the rails to trails act.

The way I read it... depending on the intent... the STB sided that the property was eligible as the state intent was not to consummate the abandonment.... and the line was 'intact'.
https://www.stb.gov/Decisions/readingro ... enDocument

But, that opened up a new front as now that's it was decided that it was eligible for trail conversion and WAS still under the jurisdiction of the STB, it was also eligible for new OFA offers and shipper need requests, so that battle immediately restarted and has yet to be resolved.

It's been two years and counting on Indiana, if they want to go to New York, well, there's the playbook. You really have to follow their own arguments to comprehend it. The major difference I can see is that Indiana started with an abandonment in 1991; the PC abandonment of the Lake Placid Branch was 1974. National Rail to Trails act was 1983, so the definition of 'consummation of abandonment' can get pretty sticky depending on WHEN and what the process was at the time. After the trails act, the entire process was really clarified, before then it can be pretty confusing, particularly if a line was purchase and put back into service after it was abandoned.

I never realized that they'd actually started dismantling the line prior to state purchase:
https://www.nytimes.com/1974/05/05/arch ... rable.html


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:23 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:37 pm
Posts: 83
Randy, I always appreciate your insight and information. It often clears things up without any emotion.

exprail


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:28 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 1010
On November 13, 2019, the Adirondack Daily Enterprise printed a letter from Jim McCulley, a leader of the Lake Placid Snowmobile Club and Adirondack Recreational Trail Advocates.

McCulley blames the Adirondack Scenic Railroad and the NY State Department of Transportation for washouts and other deterioration of the corridor between Tupper Lake and Lake Placid: DOT, ASR let corridor crumble


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:23 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:08 pm
Posts: 45
Surprised noones posted the latest article from this whole ordeal.

Summarize it, plan is pretty much as is before the lawsuit. Reuse any good materials from tupper to placid, restore tracks to tupper lake + track work in section between remsen to big moose. North of tupper becomes a trail... Not happy with the outcome but, what more can you do. Maybe the STB or historic rulings will come into play don’t know.

https://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.c ... =hootsuite

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:20 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 2213
What is new here is that the old ARTA lie about financing the trail with the 'proceeds' of scrapping the track is over and done. As I read it, the recovered track material will be used to help restore the entire retained trackage, with DEC taking over the cost of preparing and maintaining the trail.

We'll certainly see who or what comes out of the woodwork once the track-lifting begins. Hope the rewritten 'travel corridor' legislation is better phrased and considered than previous efforts have been!

For those interested, the schedule of public hearings on the Remsen-Lake Placid Travel Corridor is now:

¯ Dec. 3, Tupper Lake Middle-High School, 6 to 8 p.m.

¯ Dec. 4, Lake Placid Conference Center, 6 to 8 p.m.

¯ Dec. 5, Old Forge, View Arts Center, 6 to 8 p.m.

The DEC will take written public comments until Dec. 20

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:24 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 1010
From the Utica newspaper:
Quote:
State officials will host a public information meeting later this month in Utica concerning the latest draft plan for the proposed Adirondack rail trail, State Senate Deputy Minority Leader Joseph Griffo announced Monday.
and
Quote:
Meetings are scheduled this week in Tupper Lake (Tuesday), Lake Placid (Wednesday) and Old Forge (Thursday). Griffo, R-Rome, said he wrote a letter dated Nov. 21 to DEC Commissioner Basil Seggos when those meetings were announced, encouraging the departments to host a meeting in Oneida County. The Utica meeting is scheduled for 6 p.m. Thursday, Dec. 19 in the first floor conference room of the Utica State Office Building, 207 Genesee St. With the new meeting scheduled in Oneida County, the state will extend the public comment period from Dec. 20 to Jan. 8, 2020, Griffo said.
Link to full article in the December 2, 2019 Observer-DIspatch newspaper:
Griffo - State to host meeting in Utica on proposed Adirondack rail trail plan


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:36 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 1010
An article from the November 29, 2019 Adirondack Daily Enterprise:
Quote:
The Adirondack Railway Preservation Society, which operates the Adirondack Scenic Railroad, has clarified that it is not on board with New York state’s plan to replace 34 miles of Adirondack railroad tracks with a trail.

A quote from ARPS board President Bill Branson, praising the state’s plan to renovate tracks between the Old Forge area and Tupper Lake, was included in a joint press release from the state departments of Transportation and Environmental Conservation on Nov. 13. This was surprising because ARPS had fought the other half of the plan for the 119-mile state-owned railroad corridor — to remove the tracks connecting Tupper Lake and Lake Placid and put in their place a trail for biking, snowmobiling, jogging and skiing.

Branson claimed on social media last Friday that state officials took his quote out of context.

“In early November the ASR was informed an announcement by DEC was forthcoming that would support the upgrade and we were asked for a supportive comment to be included in the press release,” he wrote. “The comment provided is about the upgrade, not the rail trail. There has been no settlement. Any such reference is not accurate.”

Branson said the railroad was “seriously misled,” and the ASR “reserves the option to again pursue legal action.”

Link to the full story: Scenic Railroad still opposes state plan - Says DEC used seemingly supportive quote out of context


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:15 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 1010
From the Adirondack Daily Enterprise:
Quote:
RAY BROOK — The Adirondack Park Agency announced a public comment period for Adirondack Park State Land Master Plan conformance on proposals from the Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) and the Department of Transportation (DOT) to amend the 1996 Remsen – Lake Placid Travel Corridor Unit Management Plan.

The APA will accept public comment through April 20.
Link to the March 20, 2020 article: APA starts public comment on rail trail


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 6:12 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 1010
From the Adirondack Explorer:
Quote:
Adirondack Park board OKs rail trail

May 14, 2020

The Adirondack Park Agency gave final approval Thursday to a rail trail and scenic railroad plan that has taken years to finalize and in its time became one of the most contentious projects to come before the board.
and
Quote:
Rail refurbishment for the scenic railroad is expected to be completed by 2021, and the rail trail by 2023. The DEC did not answer emailed questions about how the state’s current virus-related financial problems might impact the project.
Link: Adirondack Park board OKs rail trail


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 7:09 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:30 pm
Posts: 226
If there is a funding shortage, well, as the old saying goes: "Good luck with that."
Honestly, I wish people would stop ripping out track on purpose just to build trails. This is getting crazy, in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 3:03 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:55 pm
Posts: 985
Location: Warren, PA
Well, before you think that compromise simply isn't possible anymore, here's one that has hopefully been resolved. This was getting pretty heated up there, despite the fact that the railroad was openly advocating rail-with-trail alternatives.
https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/lo ... da38a.html


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:04 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 1010
From a June 3, 2020 article in the Syracuse, NY Post-Standard newspaper:
Quote:
All the legal hurdles for the controversial “Rails to Trails” project in the Adirondacks have been cleared.

Following several administrative details and the awarding of contracts, the estimated $44.8 million project is expected to be completed by 2023, the state Department of Environmental Conservation confirmed this week.

In the latest development, the state Adirondack Park Agency recently signed off on a revised version of the so-called Remsen-Lake Placid Unit Management Plan. The 119-mile railroad corridor connects the Utica area to Lake Placid.

The plan, pushed by the state departments of Environmental Conservation and Transportation, calls for ripping up the rail lines for a 34-mile, multi-use trail in the heart of the Adirondacks from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid while preserving another section for scenic train rides.

Train tracks from Tupper Lake south to Utica will be refurbished for scenic railroad rides. That refurbishment of the 85 miles of railroad and related work is expected to be completed next year, according to the DEC.
Link to the full article:
DEC: Controversial $44.8 million Adirondack 'Rails to Trails’ project will be finished by 2023


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