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 Post subject: New Steam - what would you build?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:01 am 

> ...if it were possible, what would you have built?
> Now, I want to frame this fantasy with the
> following assumptions:
> 1.) Money is no object.
> 2.) You may run the locomotive anywhere.

I'd build Reading G-3 No. 220, to replace No. 219, America's last-built Pacific.

About 20 years before there was a Reading Company Technical and Historical Society, the 219 was offered to the city of Reading for historical preservation, for one dollar. The city declined, and the 219 was scrapped.

G-3 whistles are still around, however. The T-1's wore them on the Iron Horse Rambles during the 1960's, and I believe former CP 972 wore one on her October 1983 trips over the East Penn.

These days, on the right day, aboard the right train, with the right engine, you can hear the voice of the Reading G-3 on your way up to Bald Knob...

bruceman2@earthlink.net


  
 
 Post subject: Re: New Steam - what would you build?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:42 am 

> For a smaller operation, I'd most likely
> choose to replicate a nice little 4-4-0 or
> 2-6-2. Again, the decision what to build
> would be based on where it'd run. For
> "my" curvy, hilly railroad, I'd
> want a nice little 2-6-2 with small drivers
> and plenty of steam. For a railroad like
> Strasburg that's relatively flat and
> straight, I'd probably choose a beefy 4-4-0
> like a PRR D16sb. If I was rebuilding the
> EBT as a working narrow-gauge line, I'd most
> likely build a half-dozen or so new 3' gauge
> Garrets, probably with a 2-6-2+2-6-2 wheel
> arrangement.

3' gauge was rare for Garratts, there were only two types, most where for metre or Cape gauge.
The EBT would probably manage with 2-8-4's or 2-10-4's as "rigid" locomotives cost less to maintain (not so much to go wrong...) but if you had a Cumbres to deal with then articulation is the way to go. A mallett/simple articulated would not be the best thing to take round "Windy Point" (I've walked round it) as the throw over would be excessive but a Garratt wouldn't have that problem. A scaled down EAR 59 class maybe - modernised of course.

G

Garratt Locomotives
gavin@hamilton.powernet.co.uk


  
 
 Post subject: Re: New Steam - what would you build? *PIC*
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:16 am 

> . . . but if you had a Cumbres to deal
> with then articulation is the way to go. A
> mallett/simple articulated would not be the
> best thing to take round "Windy
> Point" (I've walked round it) as the
> throw over would be excessive but a Garratt
> wouldn't have that problem. A scaled down
> EAR 59 class maybe - modernised of course.

But in the name of operating efficiency, many things are acceptable. Here's a photo for your entertainment of the Western Colorado Unitah RR's Number 50 (2-6-6-2T) going around a 60 degree turn on a 7 1/2 percent grade at Baxter Pass. Photo is from Beebe and Clegg's "Narrow Gauge in the Rockies."

Ed

Image
ff1044@aol.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: New Steam - what would you build?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:26 pm 

> But in the name of operating efficiency,
> many things are acceptable. Here's a photo
> for your entertainment of the Western
> Colorado Unitah RR's Number 50 (2-6-6-2T)
> going around a 60 degree turn on a 7 1/2
> percent grade at Baxter Pass. Photo is from
> Beebe and Clegg's "Narrow Gauge in the
> Rockies."

> Ed

Ah but we were talking about "new" steam, I don't know how far a Uintah loco would go but by building a tank engine you limit your fuel and water supplies. Also these loco's were built to do a specific task and did it well within the limitations of the specification. I'll look up the loco details when I get home.

A simple articulated loco tends to be long and thin with a limit on firebox volume which will, in turn, cramp other parts of the design and water tanks flanking the boiler also cramp the design. If you want a modern locomotive don't include old fashioned constraints. To use current terminology it is necessary to "think outside the box" and come up with answers to the old problems such as preparation and disposal times, lubrication etc. There is no reason to make a modern locomotive look "space age" but under the skin it should use the best that is available even if that means some of the technology or ideas have been developed elsewhere.

G


Garratt Locomotives
gavin@hamilton.powernet.co.uk


  
 
 Post subject: Re: New Steam - what would you build?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:33 pm 

> Ah but we were talking about "new"
> steam, I don't know how far a Uintah loco
> would go but by building a tank engine you
> limit your fuel and water supplies. Also
> these loco's were built to do a specific
> task and did it well within the limitations
> of the specification. I'll look up the loco
> details when I get home.

> A simple articulated loco tends to be long
> and thin with a limit on firebox volume
> which will, in turn, cramp other parts of
> the design and water tanks flanking the
> boiler also cramp the design. If you want a
> modern locomotive don't include old
> fashioned constraints. To use current
> terminology it is necessary to "think
> outside the box" and come up with
> answers to the old problems such as
> preparation and disposal times, lubrication
> etc. There is no reason to make a modern
> locomotive look "space age" but
> under the skin it should use the best that
> is available even if that means some of the
> technology or ideas have been developed
> elsewhere.

Well, if we're building a "new" version of an 19th century technology, I would take the boiler right off the rails and build power plant to electrify a catenary or third rail. Then I free my self of all the constraints of operating a steam system within the load gauge and can make use of the cheapest fuels in the most efficient fashion. The other alternative is to re-examine the open steam cycle which has inherent thermodynamic limitations. I would then look at some of the closed cycle engines using some other liquid than water as a heat transfer medium.

I understand the fun of designing an engine built my way, but we must remember that railroads had engines that were designed to meet very specific operational and financial requirements that are absent in this sort of discussion. So the forms that we so admire no longer follow function, only our taste. If I had the money to actually follow through this sort of exercise as anything other than a cerebral activity, I would be much more inclined to spend my money on a restoral to operation of any number of the static display engines as an example of living history. Should I succumb to the build new impulse, I would probably build a series of two-footers using Baldwin plans. I would dream of reproducing some of the Maine two railroads principle rosters as an exercise in comparative design. I wouldn't hesitate to add an example of the late Baldwin Mikado that went to India or a South African Garrett. The only thing that I would add to the Baldwin plans would be the inclusion of the Porta's GPCS firebox to keep the modern day environmentalist somewhat at bay by reducing smoke output. The two foot gauge has the advantage of being a much more "human" sized piece of machinery, less expensive to operate and I wouldn't have to settle for just one.

Ed

P.S. Both of Unitah's three foot guage 2-6-6-2Ts were "de-tanked" when they were bought by the Sumpter Valley RR and then ended their lives in Central America.



ff1044@aol.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: New Steam - what would you build?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:38 pm 

> Well, if we're building a "new"
> version of an 19th century technology, I
> would take the boiler right off the rails
> and build power plant to electrify a
> catenary or third rail. Then I free my self
> of all the constraints of operating a steam
> system within the load gauge and can make
> use of the cheapest fuels in the most
> efficient fashion. The other alternative is
> to re-examine the open steam cycle which has
> inherent thermodynamic limitations. I would
> then look at some of the closed cycle
> engines using some other liquid than water
> as a heat transfer medium.

> I understand the fun of designing an engine
> built my way, but we must remember that
> railroads had engines that were designed to
> meet very specific operational and financial
> requirements that are absent in this sort of
> discussion. So the forms that we so admire
> no longer follow function, only our taste.
> If I had the money to actually follow
> through this sort of exercise as anything
> other than a cerebral activity, I would be
> much more inclined to spend my money on a
> restoral to operation of any number of the
> static display engines as an example of
> living history. Should I succumb to the
> build new impulse, I would probably build a
> series of two-footers using Baldwin plans. I
> would dream of reproducing some of the Maine
> two railroads principle rosters as an
> exercise in comparative design. I wouldn't
> hesitate to add an example of the late
> Baldwin Mikado that went to India or a South
> African Garrett. The only thing that I would
> add to the Baldwin plans would be the
> inclusion of the Porta's GPCS firebox to
> keep the modern day environmentalist
> somewhat at bay by reducing smoke output.
> The two foot gauge has the advantage of
> being a much more "human" sized
> piece of machinery, less expensive to
> operate and I wouldn't have to settle for
> just one.

> Ed

> P.S. Both of Unitah's three foot guage
> 2-6-6-2Ts were "de-tanked" when
> they were bought by the Sumpter Valley RR
> and then ended their lives in Central
> America.

My local (10 minutes walk) railway is electrified, four tracks and 100 mph limited. If steam is involved in the generation of the elctricity it is far away and not subject to the constraints of size that a locomotive is subject to - it is also a lot more efficient.

However if we stick to the classic steam locomotive form it is possible, given limitless funds (which is where this debate started), to build a better loco incorporating systems and features which will make it easier, cleaner and more efficient to operate. It is all very well to replicate something exactly but by doing so we are only replicating all the deficiencies of the original item, if, however to aim is to operate the replica would it not be better to incorporate improvements in the building process to make a better vehicle?

Re the Uintah locos - when the tanks where removed (the exact reasons for this seem to have included problems with filling the tanks from the Sumpter Valley tanks and visibility) it was found necessary to add weight (old rails I believe) on the running boards to regain the adhesive mass represented by the tanks and their contents. I have read, source forgotten, that they where still regarded as light on thier feet....

G


Garratt Locomotives
gavin@hamilton.powernet.co.uk


  
 
 Post subject: Re: New Steam - what would you build?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:54 pm 

Hmmm! What a choice to have to make. A Reading Company G-1sa would be nice, or a Reading L class 4-6-0. Or a CNJ G-3 (P-47)4-6-2 Blue Comet engine,or CNJ L-7sa(T-38)4-6-0 or a B&O EM-1 2-8-8-4- or a NYO&W Y class 4-8-2,or a....... . By the way, we had a Reading G class whistle on our Shay the past two days and you're right, it is one of the best sounding 6 chimes there is.


captbuck@comcast.net


  
 
 Post subject: Re: New Steam - what would you build? *PIC*
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:37 pm 

> Long Island Railroads 2nd steam loco the
> Postboy which is a litte 2-2-0 I belive
> built by Baldwin which I have been told was
> the first steamer equiped with a Wistel.

> But "big steam" a Long Island
> Railroad Camelback 4-4-2 would be great.

> Or a Norwegian State Railroad 2-6-0

Do you think of one of theese:
The 271 ( class 30a) just made a test run - sucsess!
regards Ragnar Andenaes.

Image


  
 
 Post subject: Re: New Steam - what would you build? *PIC*
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:48 pm 

> Long Island Railroads 2nd steam loco the
> Postboy which is a litte 2-2-0 I belive
> built by Baldwin which I have been told was
> the first steamer equiped with a Wistel.

> But "big steam" a Long Island
> Railroad Camelback 4-4-2 would be great.

> Or a Norwegian State Railroad 2-6-0
Heisann Olaf den røde - skriver du norsk også?
Vedlagt bilde av ny rørplate insatt i 30a 271.

mvh Ragnar Andenæs


Image


  
 
 Post subject: Re: New Steam - what would you build?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:41 pm 

> Heisann Olaf den røde - skriver du norsk
> også?
> Vedlagt bilde av ny rørplate insatt i 30a
> 271.

> mvh Ragnar Andenæs

var snar snil? nei da, snaker norsk nei got?
hey I am 21 trying to learn how to speak norwegian and the only place that will teach it is the Norwegian Seamans church in NYC but it is not the northern dialect that I want to know, if i wanted to know southern norsk then I would ask my freind to teach me. And yes I want to build a Norwegian State Railroads 2-6-0 but for operation in america, and I will name it someday which I know will never come, unless I win the lottery or ship out for a few years the Vineland.
ha en god dag
Olaf the Red

bedt16rmli@aol.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: New Steam - what would you build?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 11:16 am 

> However if we stick to the classic steam
> locomotive form it is possible, given
> limitless funds (which is where this debate
> started), to build a better loco
> incorporating systems and features which
> will make it easier, cleaner and more
> efficient to operate. It is all very well to
> replicate something exactly but by doing so
> we are only replicating all the deficiencies
> of the original item, if, however to aim is
> to operate the replica would it not be
> better to incorporate improvements in the
> building process to make a better vehicle?

There is the rub. No matter how well you make a steam engine, the requirements for maintaining a pressure vessel makes it more expensive to operate than an IC engine in any real world environment. It has even reached the point that the advantages of scale that steam use to enjoy have been rapidly eroded. The only vessels the U.S. Navy is buying now that have steam propulsion are nuclear powered. Otherwise, the fast guys use gas turbines and the slow guys use medium or slow speed diesels. In the world of electrical power generation, most recent plants are using GT with regeneration. So strictly speaking, no matter how well you design a steam engine is suffers from an unrecoverable fatal flaw, it has a pressure vessel. I don't know enough about flash system to essay an opinion though that might be another "out of the box" solution. So if one is going to knowingly build a machine that will not be an economic success, then build one that will at be successful at something else, i.e. historical interpretation.

> I have read, source forgotten, that they
> where still regarded as light on thier
> feet....

Would expect so, but then probably the most famous example of "light on it's feet" is the N&W "A" class. With a factor of adhesion of 3.79, the limited cut off at 75% was the only thing that kept the "A"s from burning the rails more than they were already famous for.

Ed

ff1044@aol.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: New Steam - what would you build?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 4:29 pm 

> Do you think of one of theese:
> The 271 ( class 30a) just made a test run -
> sucsess!
> regards Ragnar Andenaes.

There are a couple of Norwegian 2-6-0's in the UK - I wish we had a "Dovre Dragon" (I think that's the right name) though I'd settle for a decent photograph of one!

G


Garratt Locomotives
gavin@hamilton.powernet.co.uk


  
 
 Post subject: Re: New Steam - what would you build?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:48 pm 

> There are a couple of Norwegian 2-6-0's in
> the UK - I wish we had a "Dovre
> Dragon" (I think that's the right name)
> though I'd settle for a decent photograph of
> one!

> G
yea i know there are a few in england but not in the USA we need more European Standard gauge steam! But smaller locos I will take a garret or two lol dont we all

bedt16rmli@aol.com


  
 
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