Does anyone know how this restoration could possibly cost 3M!?!?!?

Like how would that even be possible

Inflation and contractor costs.

It’s why a ground up restoration of 3001 was estimated to be over $4 million.

If you’re doing significant portions of the work in house, I imagine that the costs decrease substantially from the contractor estimates.

https://m.alaskarails.org/pix/former-lo ... index.html
I'm always amused by sticker shock at the cost of cost of restoring mainline steam, or the frustration that it can't be done quickly. Here is an estimate of the costs to restore Alaska 557 a few years back, at around $3M, for a smaller locomotive that had operated recently when work was started on it, and that doesn't include the volunteer hours they have put into it. Dick Morris can comment, but I would bet anything that they have gone way, way past $3M by now.

Yes but those examples are total cost. How much has already been spent on this project so far? Before work stopped,the impression was that the 3713 project was in the home stretch. 2.5-3 million IN ADDITION to what has already been spent on the work that's been done is what's shocking.

John

https://railfan.com/steamtown-nrhs-chap ... e-bm-3713/ The only number I have ever seen was this $750K as of 2023, which if true is on the very low end for a full restoration. The linked article says "Donations and federal funding helped rebuild the drivers, air pumps, feed water pump, make boiler repairs, and build a new firebox, cab and cistern for the tender." It does not say that any of that work was completed, and I'll bet it isn't, for example, a new firebox was constructed, but was it installed, and were the stays installed? Plus what comes to my head as a non-expert is: driver brasses (remember how much these were when the brasses on 1309 were stolen and sold to a scrap metal dealer, around $250K as I recall, and even restoring them is not cheap, were they carefully monitored when the locomotive was drug around the NE?), running gear other than the drivers: axles, etc. are not mentioned at all. All the other bearings including the tender. Boiler tubes, superheater tubes. An expert can fill in the rest, but I doubt $750K took more than a small bite out of the total cost.

Nobody should be astounded by a $3M price tag to restore a superheated passenger engine, with a trailing truck booster- if the condition is bad enough. If I recall the "thermometer"exhibit that sat behind the firebox correctly, the original estimate was close to $2M and that was something estimated in the 1990's when 1.44 MB floppy disks were the cat's pajamas.

However, as it's been pointed out, a significant amount of money has been spent to do a significant amount of work.

https://railfan.com/steamtown-nrhs-chap ... e-bm-3713/

I and others discussed the necessity of road steam with the late former Superintendent Hagen in 2012 at Moscow when 3254 ran out of flue time. At that time, he indicated he was going to meet with the Maintenance Chief Mark Birtel about whether 3254 or 2317 should be rehabbed first. We were all in agreement that it was the choice between a nice Oldsmobile (2317) and an old pickup truck beaten to within an inch of its life. Despite its smaller size, 2317 is a far more forgiving locomotive and can take perhaps 8 coaches East, assuming it's not a wet November day with leaves all over the track.

It was some-time later that we heard that 2317 was going to require major work and would cost well over $1M to refurbish, but that was "scuttlebutt", not a work scope with a carefully priced bill of materials and labor use and rate estimates. Unfortunately, the next year Kip passed away suddenly and shortly after the standard process for the sudden loss of superintendent-where experienced staff make inquiries to develop of briefing book for the replacement, Mr. Birtel decided it was time to retire. Make of that what you will.

My personal opinion is that with the grades on the Pocono Main, the 2317 is mechanically better suited for excursion passenger operations than is 3713 with its 80 inch drivers-however that invites the issue of the absence of an American engine.

The rupture of the agreement with the L&WV Chapter was, said to be the result of some defect in the agreement-so instead of amending the agreement, Shepherd axed it and I was told that she said adequate funding could be obtained internally. Well, it's a couple years later, and she's gone (thankfully) and the money never came.

There's a problem in this to and 'fro-donors have already died waiting to see this engine run and it's difficult to get people to donate when you constantly start and stop the restoration. People want steady progress and a foreseeable end date. Don't ask isn't the right answer to donor inquiries.

Given the short-handed shop force, IF they get the Shay out by 2027 (I'm a betting man, and my money is on shuttle ops being handled by the SW1 in 2027-if I'm alive then and proven wrong, I'll happily eat a big plate of crow). Either way, nothing is going to happen significantly INTERNALLY with either road engine when it's going to be all hands-on deck for 26 and the Shay and we've been told by present employees-they are short-handed-an assessment I agree with despite the disagreeability of the source.

I think for the foreseeable future-road steam is going to be exclusively provided by Port Clinton. By foreseeable future I'm specifying a minimum of five years-and at some point it's academic for lack of Class 1 qualified steam engineers.

Thank you PMC and Superheater for your comments, which were enlightening. $750,000 is really not a huge amount to have spent for a locomotive restoration. With all the time this restoration has been going on I would have expected the total cost spent to be well over $1 M by this time. In retrospect, this locomotive should probably just have been spruced up cosmetically and placed in the roundhouse for display like # 759, with the focus being on the already operating engines like #2317, and maybe one additional if #3254 would have eventually been deemed unsuitable. I'm only 47 but have basically given up on ever seeing #3713 run. I agree with Superheater that it will be very hard, and understandably so, to get people to donate to a project that has had so many start and stops and uncertainty. It's too bad the momentum that this project had during the "Project 3713" era was brought to an end for no good reason.

John

There's another question here with regard to cost. Some work was being done by shop staff-was their attributable earnings counted in the cost? How about the volunteer labor? Do we really know what was expended at this point.

The real questions are what's left to be done or redone, what will it cost, is there a commitment to completion, a plan and effective fundraising.

All very good questions indeed. I think before reasonably expecting further donations, the scope of work, anticipated cost, and yes, commitment to the project, are all things that need to be spelled out.

John

Speaking as an early skeptic of the PRR T-1 Trust-who is both fascinated and overjoyed to see progress I once thought impossible-I think that group has among the best donor engagement strategies-and perhaps it is of necessity given the relative novelty of construction from scratch and immensity of an eight-figure capital requirement.

1. They are singularly focused on a specific overall goal.

2. They have specific markers of progress such as a expected complete project completion date.

3. Having a plan and adhering to it as best as possible, but seizing upon presented opportunities (acquiring the old stock tender).

4.) Disaggregation of the project into discrete components, materials and needs which will illustrate progress-following the adage you eat an elephant one bite at time.

5.) Regular public releases and programs of finished components and overall progress- emphasizing how the completed item represents a significant part of the locomotive and the continuing progress.

6.) Allowing various options for donors to donate. For specific items in a variety of amounts with incentives for large donations.


What is being reported currently is that the is public waffling on 3713, with speculation that 2317 might be object of restoration. This is, in my estimation going to cause even more donor reluctance, and it's not like items 2-6 are part of the equation right now.

Hi
This restoration at Steamtown, of the Meadow River Lumber Co # 1 is going to take some taking??
When F.Nelson Blount brought the locomotive back in 1959,, the locomotive then was was Worn Out..
Note the last time the engine ran was in 1956,, about 70 years ago..
I would like to see the locomotive returned to service,, by the personal at Steamtown,, but this is not going to be ans easy task.. I have read returning a Shay locomotive back to service is a but different than a conventional Steam (rod) engine..
Since this is going to have to be a Frame Up restoration, as I said hopefully the parts that are missing,, such as the Sand Dome, Cab Roof,, were stored before the move to Scranton,, was made.. and they are in a Boxcar,,on the property..
As this is Not going to be a quick restoration,, Steam town should contact Cass Scenic RR,, to help with the Consulting on the locomotive,, after all Cass personal knows there way around a Shay,, as we all know..
Also they should contact Strasburg RR,, for help in either renewing or making replacement parts for the locomotive...
This restoration is Not going to Cheap,, $$$$,,,everything is worn out,, the gears, the gear shafts,, the wheels sets,,etc etc...
I am not trying to throw stones, I want to see the Locomotive Returned to Service,, But also we have seen, how Steamtown Starts off Well in a restoration and then Stalls.. either because, of Money issues,, or a sponsor pulls out, or gets fired.
Steamtown has set a goal for 2027,, I do hope they make that goal, and the Meadow River Lumber is Back in Steam,, Good Luck,, Pat.

Per the agreement with Strasburg, the 2025 budget for LIRR #39 is over $3.5 Million.

Roger

A Shay? Really, a slow Shay which is atypical of mainline or even branch line steam?

Any side rod locomotive from that collection makes far more sense in historical context, at least to me. Maine Central 519, CNR 47, NKP 759 (too big, I know), CNR 3377, or the CPR Pacific.

Glad to see any steam locomotive fired, but this decision for regular power leaves me wondering.

Not only is everything you wrote correct, it's a conclusion that anybody with even a modest education about steam could make. So we are left with a couple possibilities.

1.) The NPS bureaucracy made little or no effort to understand motive power needs.

2.) The NPS bureaucracy made an error in its evaluation. (likely)

3.) The NPS has other plans.

I believe I've relayed this story before, but in the early stages of discussions with former Superintendent Conway about what would become the Iron Horse Society, we discussed her the idea contained in her comment quoted in Trains about the "three or four" operating engines being necessary to fulfill the "live steam experience". We told her that given the present and foreseeable operating speeds (typical 30 mph max), engines designed for freight made more sense than any high-wheeled passenger engine. I don't think most people understand the narrow design parameters of steam.

The difficulty remains that the NPS is really designed to preserve and protect nature sites, buildings and battlefields. While some of its policies, protocols, practices are useful in dealing with the 63 or so acres that are Steamtown, it has almost no institutional knowledge of railroad matters or industrial relics in general.

In a perfect world, the NPS would be doing RFP's for new construction locomotives and coaches to be the basis of the interpreting operations and the collection would be statically preserved.

By the way, the rumor mill has CN 47 and some other engines gone. While I think that the realpolitik fiscal limits demand "right-sizing" the collection, letting CN 47 go is a tremendous mistake. Bi-directionality and modest size, plus its ability to be a Standin for similar CNJ commuter engines would make it an excellent Carbondale and shuttle engine.

Hi superheater
I curious about what you said in your last post,, CNR 47 and others gone,, this is all new information,, any idea where??? Thank Pat.