> I would think the best typical steamer would
> be a USRA Pacific or Mikado. Here's an
> example, take NKP 587, reletter her and do
> some very slight cosmetic modifications and
> you have a locomotive that would fit in
> anywhere in North America. While we are
> talking about Southern engines, 4501 in
> black would work pretty well. As far as
> seeing 1401 run again, I'll take any and as
> much steam as possible! While we're talking
> about it, when are you guys in Union going
> to have CB&Q #3007 out on the road ;) no
> presure or anything.

> Mike Stickel

We can have it out on the road about 18 months after receipt of your check for $750,000. I'll keep watching my mailbox...

Kevinmccabe@avenew.com

Read with interest the move of the Pioneer to Bethlehem, PA. What is the National Museum of Technology? Do they own any steam engines? What about street cars?

Do they plan to run anything?

Ted Miles

ted_miles@NPS.gov

Never mind the 1401.

I'd want to see the three sisters, "Eureka", "Sonoma" & "Jupiter" all under steam side by side on the Cumbers & Toletec. Just once a year.

I know the "Jupiter" is lost in the Smithsonian philosophy, so this will never happen. But it's a nice dream.


Thime@aol.com

> Read with interest the move of the Pioneer
> to Bethlehem, PA. What is the National
> Museum of Technology? Do they own any steam
> engines? What about street cars?

> Do they plan to run anything?

> Ted Miles

The National Museum of Industrial History is a project using the old Bethlehem Steel mill in Bethlehem as a museum and entertainment centre. The two steam engines are owned by the Smithsonian and are loaned to NMIH.

Smithsonian Annual Report extract (pdf file)

As soon as I win a powerball, you'll get your check for $750k. As for the 1401, I don't think there is anyone who would turn down the chance to see a Ps-4 run. But she is in fine hands now. I'm planning on spending some time in Ft. Wayne this summer, now that is a worthwhile and realistic cause.

Mike Stickel
We can have it out on the road about 18
> months after receipt of your check for
> $750,000. I'll keep watching my mailbox...


masticke@indiana.edu

> 4. My personal desire would be to see
> several of us in the southeast pool our
> resources and talents and build a replica
> Ps4 that could be easily rotated around the
> region in time for the 100th anniversary of
> the introduction of the engines in the
> 2020s.

> Any takers?

I wonder if there are any of the Mitsubishi built pacifics left in China that might make a fine starting point for a remodeling into a replica Ps2 or similar slightly smaller light, green, pacific.

Alternatively, a frame from a Ps4 was supposed to be buried in the old turntable pit at Spencer along with tons of brass bells and whistles.

Maybe Jim can provide the shovels.......

More to the point, the Smithsonian is now working on a plan which is either brilliant or stupid - I can't make up my mind - to recreate Salisbury, NC depot in the building around 1401. There is a perfectly good original still in its original location, just south of Spencer which might be a better place (or not) for 1401 to be preserved.

Salisbury depot has been preserved and houses not only the AMTRAK station, but the Historic Salisbury Foundation offices as well. Perhaps a glass walled, climate conrolled enclosure could house 1401 on one of the original tracks in the shed.

Or, maybe not - it might be easier to build a replica of a major chunk of Salibury in DC. Either way she will be preserved in a controlled environment, which few other institutions can manage the resources to provide.

Dave


lathro19@idt.net

> Alternatively, a frame from a Ps4 was
> supposed to be buried in the old turntable
> pit at Spencer along with tons of brass
> bells and whistles.

> Maybe Jim can provide the shovels.......

Let me know when the digging begins. I'll shovel for awhile. Do we get to keep what we find?

aw90h@cs.com

> Yes, to a degree I think 1401 is over
> restored. However, when put into context,
> the Smithsonian was over restoring many of
> their artifacts at that time period. I
> remember reading many articles in
> Smithsonian's Air and Space magazine that
> discuss just that issue. Many planes at NASM
> are painted incorrectly, or over restored.
> The restoration specialists are adopting a
> new philosophy as to not repeat the same
> mistakes. The chromed rods on 1401 I believe
> are a compromise. By chroming them, the
> Smithsonian was able to best preserve them
> as they appeared in average use. This beats
> painting them, of having to constantly coat
> them with oil. While 1401 isn't an average
> example of an American steam locomotive, it
> is a fine example of the Builder's art, and
> of a railroad that really attempted to make
> a positive public impression with its
> locomotives. To counter the 1401, the
> Jupiter is a fine example of an average
> American locomotive. The narrow gauge 4-4-0
> is a good example of a standard Baldwin
> design that was copied in several gauges for
> many different customers. Having both
> locomotives in place allows a good
> comparison between the average and above
> average.

What is the status of 1401's asbestos lagging?


Illinios Railway Museum
paulkattner@hotmail.com

I noticed that the wheel profiles on No. 1401 appear to be perfect, leading me to wonder if this was an engine that was overhauled and never used again? Anyone know the story?


ryarger1@nycap.rr.com

> I noticed that the wheel profiles on No.
> 1401 appear to be perfect, leading me to
> wonder if this was an engine that was
> overhauled and never used again? Anyone know
> the story?

OK, Mark you sure have stirred up a lot of foam, talking about building new Ps-4's and such and this thread on the 1401, brother! I am quite certain of a few things: The Southern being the cheap railroad that it was ran the wheels off of everything until the next batch of dismals arrived. They could have turned the tires, maybe even put new ones on, but what condition is it really in? Has anyone ever looked at the shoes, wedges, hubs, journals, pins (I recall that there is some play in some of the rods and some things aren't plumbed completely), springs, pins, bushings, or inside the tender???

Although Mr. Brosnan set aside one loco for the Smitsonian (In fact, I recall something about the 1396 was the first choice but the 1401 was on the Roosevelt Funeral train coming into Washington and the Smithsonian requested it instead), there were only three other locomotives that the Southern saw fit to save - Maud (saved for the Atlanta/Pegram Roundhouse employees and NOT the Atlanta Chapter NRHS), 154 (saved as an after thought in Knoxville - home of Coster Shop - Jim Wrinn that was the LARGEST SHOP on the Southern no matter how you measure it but it did not maintain the "glorious" Ps-4's but rather everything on the Central Lines) and 542 in Winston, and as I understand it Winston paid for theirs.

The Southern desired to SELL the town of Spencer and any other town a steamer for scrap value, as they were a chincy railroad until at least Graham Claytor. Interestingly enough, the N&W became a chincy railroad as steam went away with the coming of the Philistine Saunders. The two kind of swapped roles in that respect, and now all we have left is a chincy NS (in many regards, anyway).

As for John White, remember he is the one who decried the upgrading of the Dover Harbor for Amtrak 110mph service. PLEASE! Give me a break. Would it be better not to allow those so incline not to be able to enjoy the experience of the heavyweight era while the car sits in a yard and rusts???????? Although there is a time and a place to preserve some things as close to original as possible, it should all be allowed to run, and if that means replacing some wear-type parts and pieces like wheels and such, by all means SO WHAT? It was done EVERY DAY when it was in service ORIGINALLY. The John Bull is a good example of that. If there is a thin plate or two, replace it, saving the old plates for history and allow it to run. Remember, this stuff did not sit gathering dust when it was built, so how are we able to convey how it was really like without the smells and sounds and sights of the bygone eras that we are so desperate to save? Paul Merriman once said that a cosmetically restored locomotive was nothing more than a propped up corpse. AMEN! Now, I agree that the economics of running the Ps-4 are would not currently justify it running, but if the Southern was still in the steam business, It only makes perfect sense to let it run.

I am going to stop now. I am sure that this will generate some response, and that is not what was intended, I just got up on my soapbox for a little bit :-)

Michael Brown
TVRM

newriver400@cs.com

On one of the discussion boards a while back there was talk that Graham Claytor tried very hard to get the 1401 out of the Smithsonian for SR's steam program. The gist of the tale was that if he couldn't get it out, no one could. It would be neat to have her out and running, though.

tvasbinder@hotmail.com