I'm helping out on the restoration of OR&N 197, a Pacific type that I found out today was part of an order of four, compound four cylinder Pacific types, the first compound Pacifics in the world. It was built in 1905, early in the age of the Pacific type.

When was the first Pacific built, and who was it for? If not US, when was the first US model built?

Thanks,

Smokebox

> I'm helping out on the restoration of
> OR&N 197, a Pacific type that I found
> out today was part of an order of four,
> compound four cylinder Pacific types, the
> first compound Pacifics in the world. It was
> built in 1905, early in the age of the
> Pacific type.

> When was the first Pacific built, and who
> was it for? If not US, when was the first US
> model built?

> Thanks,

> Smokebox

Dear Smokebox, the first 4-6-2 was built by baldwin in 1901 and exported to New Zealand, hence the name "Pacific" for this wheel arrangement. Engine was narrow guage and designed to burn lignite. Incidentally the first 2-8-2 was also an export locomotive to Japan in 1897 by baldwin as well..need I say the reference to "mikado"


b.hume@home.com

Lehigh Valley 444 built at the Lehigh Valley Shops in Wilkes-Barre in 1886 was the first.


lvrr@enter.net

Does anybody know what the oldest surviving Pacific in the U.S. is? I would have to say that it would be close between OR&N 197 and L&N 152, both built in 1905. For some reason December 1905 sounds about right for 152. When was 197 built?

wilkidm@wku.edu

Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul had several locos with a 4-6-2 wheel arrangement in the late 1880s or early 1890s. Some maintain that these were merely large 4-6-0s with a supplemental trailing truck, not designed as a 4-6-2.

tmanz@afo.net

> Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul had
> several locos with a 4-6-2 wheel arrangement
> in the late 1880s or early 1890s. Some
> maintain that these were merely large 4-6-0s
> with a supplemental trailing truck, not
> designed as a 4-6-2.
I took my information from "The Locomotives That Baldwin Built", other railroads may have cobbled together a wheel arrangement of 4-6-2, but I believe that the first 4-6-2 as built, as designed and as shipped from a major builder, was in fact in 1901.

b.hume@home.com

One thing to remember in defining the first pacific is that the wheel arrangement alone is not the determining factor. A pacific should have its firebox over and be supported by the trailing truck. In the case of these locos owned by the Milw and St. Paul they appeared to be a ten wheeler with an additional axle, and the firebox was between the frames over the drivers. That is why they are not considered to be of the pacific type. I would look closely at any other earlier candidates for the same features, not just the wheels involved.

In relation to the oldest pacific, the museum of transportation in St. Louis has Canadian National #5529, built by Montreal in 1906.

Museum of Transportation
rdgoldfede@aol.com

> Does anybody know what the oldest surviving
> Pacific in the U.S. is? I would have to say
> that it would be close between OR&N 197
> and L&N 152, both built in 1905. For
> some reason December 1905 sounds about right
> for 152. When was 197 built?

Union Pacific #3206 on display in Spokane, WA. was built by ALCo in 1904. That is the oldest pacific in Washington state.


crisolite@aol.com

Three of what became the "Q" class in NZ have survived, and are indeed the earliest Pacifics I have a construction date for in "Surviving World Steam Locomotives".

Next are two South African Railways 10 Class locomotives, a "5B" class locomotive, and UP P-1 class #3206, on display on the Fairgrounds in Spokane, WA (as mentioned before). I do not know if these are all "true Pacifics".

Then are there four 4-6-2s built in 1905: CNR #5529 at the Museum of Transport being one; UP P-2 class #3202 in former SP Brooklyn roundhouse, Portland, OR being another; L&N K-1 class #152 at the Kentucky Railway Museum being a third, and a Belguim-built engine at the Belguim National Railways Museum being the fourth.

If the Erie Railroad K-1 class Pacific that was thought to be on display in Korea did indeed survive, it and and a India Railways Pacific built in 1906 would be next.

The list continues on from there, for a total of 663, some of which are tank engines.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

> I took my information from "The
> Locomotives That Baldwin Built", other
> railroads may have cobbled together a wheel
> arrangement of 4-6-2, but I believe that the
> first 4-6-2 as built, as designed and as
> shipped from a major builder, was in fact in
> 1901.


Surviving World Steam Locomotives
james1@pernet.net

The #197 was built in May, 1905. When was the #152 built? Does the #152 still run?

So is the #3206 in Spokane the oldest remaing Pacific in the US?

> display on the Fairgrounds in Spokane, WA
> (as mentioned before). I do not know if
> these are all "true Pacifics".

Yes, the 3206 is a "true" as built ALCO Cooke Pacific. It is very similiar to the Baldwin OR&N 197 (aka UP 3203). I believe the Erie Pacific was also a Harriman Standard locomotive.

Smokebox

> Union Pacific #3206 on display in Spokane,
> WA. was built by ALCo in 1904. That is the
> oldest pacific in Washington state.

To add a foot note to Ed's information: The oR&N 197 (UP 3203) is undergoing restoration to operation at the Brooklyn Roundhouse in Portland OR. http://www.teleport.com/~rks

Washington Steam Railroads and Locomotives

brianfr@speakeasy.org

> The #197 was built in May, 1905. When was
> the #152 built? Does the #152 still run?

Yes, the 152 still runs. However, most of the summer was spent on FRA part 240 compliance work, so she will be back in action next season. I don't know when in 1905 she was built. The reproduction Builder's plate says December, but I don't think that is correct. Unlike OR&N 497, 152 still retains her original rigid trailing truck.

wilkidm@wku.edu

> another; L&N K-1 class #152 at the
> Kentucky Railway Museum being a third,

Not to be a nitpicker, but 152 is technically a K2A class locomotive. She was built as a K1, but with the addition of superheating and piston valves, she moved into the K2A class.

wilkidm@wku.edu

Actually, the website address has just changed slightly to:

http://home.teleport.com/~rks/



OR&N 197 Website
orn197@teleport.com