Erik, With all due respect you're avoiding the direct and valid point I was(and am) making. What difference does it make who ends up depositing the $$$, what counts is whats it cost the customer to purchase the ticket!!!
When we were charging $65 to ride behind 614 over class 5 track at track speed(79 mph),200 miles-rt, with open window space available, NO DIESELS in the consist, lots of varied speed run-bys, cab ride raffle with lots of winners every trip, good quality on board snacks-souvenirs etc. etc.,(1996-98) the UPRR trips those same years charged anywhere between $125-$200/ticket, and that was for a trip WITH DIESELS in the consist, no open window availability, either none or perfunctory run-bys, no cab rides, and thus IMHO are far less compelling product.
With that renewed attempt to define apples and apples- I would again ask you what adjective you would use to describe the ticket prices for the UPRR trips when you described the 614 prices as "exhorbinant".
Thank you. Ross Rowland

Les,
Not much as I remember. Maybe some off of the Santa Fe Southern at Lamy. I think I read that the York Canyon line was being mothballed or torn-up due to the petering-out of the coal source. The trick would be to offer incentives to induce shippers to locate across the line. Maybe a revival of more interchange through Trinidad, CO, but you know that the BNSF is not going to shorthaul itself. The industry is crying about a lack of capacity but this line (due to obvious operating issued posed by a "mountain railroad" over Raton) is underutilized. I would think that the State of New Mexico would have some plans other than keeping the line as a route for Amtrak 3 and 4. They could have opted just to purchase what they needed for the Road Runner commuter service out of Albuquerque but then possibly the BNSF said, "It is all or nothing."

Don C.

They are not UPRR trips, that's the only point I'm making. And as far as I can tell it is a simple factual statement.

Imagine that you bought an air excursion from "World Charter Inc." and they flew you on a plane they rented from Delta. You then complained about the high cost of flights on Delta. That is not fair or accurate in my book: you were doing business with "World Charter Inc." not with Delta, Delta wasn't your contractual counter-party, in fact Delta had nothing to do with it. So, complain about the high cost of tickets on World Charter Inc. if you feel they are unjustified, but not about the policies of Delta when Delta had nothing to do with it.

This is an important point to me; others may differ.




I never made any such description. I have never commented on 614's ticket prices. You must be referring to another poster.

My apologies to brother Ledbetter, it was brother Mitchell in his Tues. 3/14 post above that used the term to describe his opinion of the Port Jervis trips ticket prices. I'll ask brother Mitchell for the same answer per the above post. Thanks, Ross rowland

Don:

One reason I asked, and as long as you and RR were talking 4-8-4's, I remember a certain Northern pulling a way freight fan trip some years ago west of Chicago. Always remember her "tip-toeing" on one of the light rail industrial sidings. Imagine 261 or 614 doing that!

Les

Speaking of operating on light rail, I can report that we operated the 614 over the entire length of the New Hope&Ivyland RR both dead in tow and under steam without problems, and this is an all stick- rail railroad with the majority of the rail 90 lbs. Obviously we very very careful particularly at the turnouts but she did fine and we never encountered a problem.
She also did remarkably well(thank you Lima design engineers for the lateral relief devices) thru the very complex puzzle switches in the vast Hoboken NJ complex and never gave us any trouble.
Ross Rowland

What are lateral relief devices?

Robert T.

Lateral motion driving boxes were spring loaded boxes that would deflect when the engine enters a curve. This reduced the wear on the flanges and helped steer the engine into a curve. On tanget track the devices centered the driver. These devices could be on one or more axles. Some were only on the first driver but often the second driver was equiped with them as well. I think I remember some engines having lateral motion driver boxes on the front and rear drivers but I do not remember which engines those would be.

Both 2101 and 614 were on 85 pound rail when they were turned on the wye at Martinsburg, WV. I would not be suprised if they were on smaller rail than that at some point in time. At slow speeds and decent tie and surface conditions 60 pound rail will hold a 4-8-4 with no trouble.

John Bohon

John makes a very important point. What counts most is overall condition of the track structure (tie condition, ballast/drainage, joint bars, cross level etc.) vs. rail weight. We turned many times at Martinsburg on that 85 lb. iron (and some pieces of that weren't in the greatest shape!),of course at dead slow speed. We also went over some 70 lb. iron in the old Hinton yard and in the Hurricane W.Va. yard without any problems(nice and easy!!) so it can be done.
Ross Rowland

Granted $65 isn't that expensive in relative terms considering the product being offered. I could point out that I can ride that trackage almost any ol' weekday on NJ Transit, but I'm sure if we were trying to ride 79-mph track that didn't have regular commuter traffic, the price would easily have doubled or tripled. (You should hear some of the comments being leveled at the ticket prices being charged for this year's NRHS Convention on the Ohio Central!)

What put me off riding those trips was the total cost of the trip up there and the lodging, etc. that would have been necessary had I come in from, say, Baltimore or central Pennsylvania. For the New Yorkers/northern New Jerseyans, not a problem. Call me a tightwad, call me broke, but I just didn't have that income to dispose of, and if I do, a trip to my wife's family promises to be almost equally rewarding and maybe a bit cheaper if the airline remains cheap! I also have yet to ride, or even see, the UP steamers, or 4449, or 819 or 1522. Not all of us can just hop on a plane to Denver or Portland for fun.

As I said, I'm working with a convention where the base membership/admission is $60 for a three-day weekend. I'm literally the only staffer that could ride a bicycle to the Convention Center. The local hotels are charging $120-350 a night; parking will run $25/day at garages; and there's a home baseball game each of three days against the team's arch-rivals. In spite of the additional expenses and crowds, however, the darn thing continues to snowball in attendance........