Work continues on "NKP PA 190" in Oregon. Side panel work is nearing completion as seen here:

http://www.nkp190.com/sidepanels.jpg

Supposed to be more photos posted tonight on www.nkp190.com.

Considering how many people said these units were hopeless to restore, I'd say Doyle is doing pretty well out there.

Yes, the work is wonderful, however:

Much of the locomotive is not real PA. Obviously, it will be a fantastic thing to see but:

Trucks are slightly different.

Prime Mover is a 60's vintage 251, not the 244.

Assuming it will have 26 air, not 6 or 24RL.

It is even now a wonderful thing to see- but is it a restoration or something else? I'm not knockin' it- its the best anybody can do with what's left-but illustrates the need to preserve things as close as possible to the time when they are still serviceable or else compromises need to be made.ab initio

Evening All.

I can agree with superheater's take on this amazing project. I think all too often the word "restoration" is used incorrectly. To "restore" something is to return something to a previous condition. I know there are better definitions out there, but thats the best description I could come up with. The limited curatorial training I had while employed by the NPS taught me the litteral meaning of several terms that are often tossed around.

As another example, the roundhouse at Steamtown was not restored (for it never had grey and red doors amongst other things), the NPS always prefered to call it "rehabilitated".

Superheater, as for the 190, i'd call it a "recreated PA" myself. Or how I used to jokingly refer to the 1361 as a "recreated K4 with some original parts".

Can't wait to see the 190 when its done, no matter what powers it.

Dave Crosby

To borrow a term from architectural preservation, maybe "renovation" is a good term. Something that retains much of it's original style, but has been updated with modern materials and mechanical systems? Or, maybe you could just call it Doyle's "Hot Rod" PA..............

All four of the PA's were extensively modified/upgraded by Morrison-Knudsen in 1974 for D&H to "PA4" status which included replacing the original 16-244 engine with a 12-251 and changing the 24RL braking system to 26L, along with requisite electrical locker, cooling, engine management, lubricant, wheelslip control, and carbody upgrades. What Doyle's doing is probably akin to restoring #18 to the state it was in when it left MK in 1974 (a previous state by definition). Pics of #18 on shop trucks stripped down for remanufacturing at MK in 1974 are very similar to pix of what Doyle started with a few years ago.

For information on the PA4 rebuilds/upgrades I highly recommend Norman Anderson and C.G. MacDermott's book PA4 Locomotive (if you can find a copy.)

I hate to rehash this stuff again, but the facts remain:

1. This is Doyle's property, not anyone else's.

2. What he does with his property is his business.

3. He has always done quality work, whether on his property or others' property.

4. If each of his critics would do as much for the preservation community as Doyle has, we wouldn't have the park hulks and bickering we now have.

5. Thankfully, he likely doesn't care what anyone thinks of what he does. I understand he used to frequent a few of these forums but got tired of it. Few would have the courage to criticize him to his face.

Way to go, Doyle. I hope to get a cab ride someday.

The hot rod world (which I'd love to belong to-alas, time, money, etc are in short supply) coined the term "restification". A good example is a 1970 Dodge Challenger (my dream car), with the body restored, a new 5.7 litre Hemi installed, and with a (for example) modern 5-speed transmission added.

Scott,

I am breaking my rule of not replying to anonymous posts...

I suggest you re-read the posts. There's not one knock on Doyle in this thread. If anything, half the posts plant lips on Doyle's tushie... and he deserves the accolades.

Superheater's topic is of relevance to the railroad preservation community because our community is lagging behind the greater preservation community in addressing such things.

Super brought up a legit question without attacking Doyle. It is a topic that deserves to be addressed on a level well beyond one machine and one man. And Supe did that. As large as Doyle's contributions are, this discussion is even larger. His work is merely another catalyst in this ongoing dialogue.

By introducing your post, it may shut down the discussion or turn it personal. So I ask you, Scott, not to rehash but to focus on the issue.

And what is the issue? It isn't Doyle. It's our community's maturation and the need that maturation brings for us to communicate accruately in an appropriate vernacular.

The previously mentioned hot rod analogy is a good one... the PA is also similar to what building preservationists call facadism, where the front wall is preserved/restored but the interior and even other walls are gutted/demolished. You end up with something that looks like the original building, but is nothing more than the facade.

Now, in hard-core preservation circles, this is a bad thing to do. And I agree, it is a bad thing to do when you are litereally saving one portion and destroying the rest. However, in the PA's case, the rest was destroyed long before the restification began.

So what will it be? Maybe buffs could call it a PA-5? After all, MK made it a PA-4 when they rebuilt it. But what to preservationists call it?

We need terminology to accurately describe such animals, and also those that are less modified but still not original like the "CNJ" F3 A-B-A that is niether CNJ nor made up of 3 F3's or the DL&E E-8's that aren't DL&W stock.

And to do this everyone has to stop taking discussions about these topics to a personal level and understand that language and it's accurate description of an object is neither an attack nor an affront.

If anything, it will help us all to have a vernacular which describes the current state of an artifact.

My two cents,

Rob

A little reading from allied fields that may be of general interest:

Similar debates in the aircraft community:

http://crm.cr.nps.gov/archive/17-4/17-4-2.pdf

And Secretary of the Interior's Standards for Historic Vessel Preservation Projects with Guidelines for Applying the Standards

Note that this document distinguishs between preservation, restoration, and rehabilitation (the PA project would be rehabilitation in this taxonomy):

http://www.hnsa.org/standa.htm#10

Well put . Some of us no doubt have feet in the other camps mentioned. It is
good to keep straight on just what terms mean what. To a purist, hot rods
are an abomination, but most hot rods are built from the very worst of a shell of a vintage car. I'd surely prefer to hear a 244-16 and to see it
sit on genuine trucks, but then who has the 244 and who wants to
have to keep it running? Trucks? I don't know that any exist.
So, yes, it is Doyle's toy and he gets to do what he wants.
We will all be glad to see it pass by.

This was a good, issue-based discussion relevant to the purposes of this board. I didn't see anything derogatory toward Doyle in any of the earlier posts. We're all aware of his rights as a property owner, and I think anyone that had or has an issue with the way Doyle's restoring "NKP 190" has figured out how to sleep at night by now.

Gentlemen:

Good Morning and Happy Friday from the Pacific Northwest.

I reread the entire thread and stand corrected. I was tired and maybe a little cranky last night when I spouted off.

I agree with you all and have learned a new word: "restification". I very much appreciate this forum.

Have a great weekend.

Scott

I think what Doyle is doing with 190 is very important. He is taking a piece that has had it's integrity as an artifact compromised, and preserving it's function. We have plenty of carbody diesel "corpses" propped up for display, but Doyle is making sure that future generations can appreciate a running carbody Alco. It's really not a lot different from upgrading a vintage passenger car to Amtrak standards so it can still serve it's original function. If I ever win the lottery (purists cringe here..), the thought of "chopping and channelling" one of the many extant Burlington E9's into a Southern E6 is awfully intriguing.

Folks,

I think what is happening to the locomotive is similar to what the Union Pacific did to an ABA set of Es or Fs a few years ago.

The outside looked like they did when they were new and the inside was
a modern Diesel locomotive fresh out of the re-building shop.

This is the railroad equilivant of facade restoration that goes on in many cities today. The outside is pretty to look at and the inside is gutted out to the bare walls and modernized.

I am glad that at least one of these engines will be around for folks to watch in operation.

There was a small report here on the other PA that is owned by the Smithsonian a while back. It indicated that nothing will happen to the locomotive and perhaps it would be loaned to another preservation group.
Any further word?

Ted Miles

Erik,

Interesting that you mention the Secretary's Standards. we put them together 14 years ago and it has been decided to to do a re-write soon.

When the project gets going here on the Internet, I will let the folks on this board know how they can contribute. This is an important step; perhaps it will even be possible to write a version especially for railroad equipment that will be kept operational. Stay tuned.

Ted Miles