I recently returned from the Altoona area, and taking a few minutes, I noticed the general lack of up keep on all of the outdoor display motive power, freight cars and passenger cars. I noticed new panel track was constructed and one or two cars were relocated within the museum grounds. I fully understand the recently history and money difficulties the museum has had, and I know as much as many of us, regarding the K4 and the problems associated with the restoration. If possible, can someone in the know comment on the general lack of any resources and attention to all of the outdoor equipment.

Specifically things such as the Loretto, Juniata Narrows, the mid train pullman lounge car, the birch river, the express reefer R50b, the d78 diner, the GG1, RPO etc. To the person who knows only what he reads, I would have to say, virtually no efforts or assets are put forth to make the outdoor displays presentable. That is true also for the 7048 at the Horseshoe Curve. I am more curious as to the "future plans" than perhaps why it has gotten so bad.

I am not being critical, I know the challanges of restoration projects, however does the museum or any friends group have a plan to stop the decay of the remaining assets the museum has. I understand a few cars within the last few years were donated or sold off ( such as the Nicholas Firestone sleeper, the Duquense business car, a pullman solarium lounge car etc ).. I know resources are tight, however someone in the know, can you please explain what is going on, or will be going on in the future to make the remaining equipment salvagable.

On a side note, I know the Duquense 7511 PRR / Pullman business car was donated to the Horseshoe Curve chapter of the NRHS and the car was sent over to Union Tank Car Co in Altoona..

Can anyone speak as to the status of this car, and the short and long term plans on this heavyweight

Thanks !

My reaction when I first visited the Railroaders Memorial Museum was exactly similiar to Pullman-cars. The interior display and all the surroundings are clearly first rate and the "front yard" is a junkyard. It's very unfortunate as the uinattractiveness of the exterior does a major disservice to the quality of the interior, and my guess is turns-off lots of potential visitors who make last minute decisions not to enter based on the visual turn-off of what one sees first upon arrival on the property.
In fairness to the current management team at the ARRMM, they have had a heck of a struggle to overcome the financial mess they inherited from thier predessesors(and to keep the place from being shuttered completely) and I'm confident know that much attention is needed to the exterior and that they'll address it asap. Plans for the construction of a quarter roundhouse/turntable are still alive(partially funded??) and if that should come to fruition that would certainly make a major improvement in the exterior look. That of course doesn't address the derelict equipment-which also needs to be either hidden or fixed!
Perhaps someone from the ARRMM would comment on the current status of projects impacting the exterior of the property??

I remember, not too long ago, many of the items were stored on the old Ward Siding ( I believe that is what it is called )east of the museum away from the general public. Some equipment I believe might still be there. I fully agree with the last message, and that was my impression, that virtually no effort is put forth in making the outside area look any better.

Now, the concept of hiding the equipment in other locations such as the Ward siding, makes sense, as the equipment in the yard is unsuitable to be viewed by the "general public", and the area would look better with one or two items in decent shape, then a dozen abandoned looking relics that are unable to be viewed and slowing disappearing each winter due to neglect.

I understand, like others, the museum has had it challanges financially and such, however I, and perhaps others, would like to know what the future has in store for the exterior motive power and misc equipment.

Certainly, I would think a comprehensive plan has been thought out regarding each car and locomotive and the possible role it would have in an attractive display yard.

Again, I am curious to know what the future holds. It is ashame that such a fine effort has been done to the building and displays, yet things outside such as the N5 cabin car, R50b, d78,GG1 etc see virtually no attention at all.

Thank you for the information, as I don't want to come off as critical, however I would like to know what the plan is in the future to preserve what remains in reasonable condition.

First of all, I take great exception to the characterization of the front yard as "junk". For the entire season last year, the Loretto, the kitchen end of the D78, the cab of the GG1, the wreck derrick and idler car, the RPO, the lounge/bar section of the Harbor Springs and the observation lounge of the Jacks Narrows were open every day to the public and were enjoyed by 10s of thousands of visitors.

We spent a great deal of time working on the INSIDE of these cars in order for people to enjoy them rather than present the outside shell of a car that nobody can enter. The dining end of the D78 is under restoration and should be completed this spring. Anyone who has paid attention would notice the new glass in the car as well as all the volunteer hours that were put in beginning the body work around the window openings.

The body work will move forward once we have the facility in which to do the work. The roundhouse and turntable complex is underway with the turntable to be ready by fall and the roundhouse to be completed in the spring of '06. See the Altoona Mirror website for the complete story on a recent gift that will make the roundhouse complex a reality.

I must reemphasize that our Museum is not in the business of hoarding rolling stock. Our mission has never included owning rolling stock just for the sake of owning equipment. Our list of equipment will be what it is in order for us to properly interpret each piece. For instance, the dining car is being restored not simply so we can show people a dining car but will be used to exhibit dining car china and more importantly to tell the African American story. The Express Reefer will soon include a partial icing platform in order for us to tell that story.

My focus the last 2 years has been to restore financial stability to the Museum. We have done that. We will show a 6-digit profit in 2004. There have been hundreds of hours of work done on the rolling stock with hundreds more to go. No matter how we approach the situation, we get suggestions that it was done the wrong way. For instance, when I moved the rolling stock to the Ward siding in order to facilitate Phase I of the roundhouse construction, people here and other places complained that it looked like the Museum was disposing of all its rolling stock. Now that we have moved it back and it is safe and clean INSIDE for people to enjoy, we get criticized for having a front yard full of "junk". I plan to press on with our plan to restore what we can, when we can, how we can. I have given up trying to please everyone - it isn't possible.

Rest assured it will get done and we are not ignoring the equipment. For Pullmancar, thank you for your inquiry. I hope I answered your questions. For answers to the questions concerning the cars we do not own (ie: The Duquesne) you will have to ask the local NRHS Chapter. For Ross, I would prefer you let those of us at the Museum who are in a position to answer these and other inquiries concerning our operation do so and quit taking every opportunity you can to fan the flames with half-truths and guesswork.

I read with interest the response by Scott, and the efforts put forth by the museum to stabilize the interior of the equipment in order that it be able to provide some interpretation of railroad history. I was unaware of most of this effort, as I passed through the interior of the museum, and walked around most of the cars within the museum grounds approximately when the R50b was being moved around. I had a chance to see much of the equipment first hand, and I believe the only car open that day was the Loretto. ( which I enjoyed seeing, what a shame about the fire on this treasure of a car ).

I fully understand the difficulties in equipment restoration, especially in that your organization has no true indoor facility to restore equipment. I appreciate your response and believe that you should continue to follow through with your plan, to the best of the museum's ability.

Scott, I was not being critical, just more curious to know what the plan was to stop the apparent decay of much of the equipment. I appreciate your candor and honesty and wish you and the organization all the very best.

Are you able to comment on the cosmetic condition of the 7048 (EMD GP-9 ) at the curve. It certainly no longer shows very well. In addition, when I visited, the gate at the fence to the locomotive was open and visitors were climbing all over the locomotive. Is this done for a reason, there was know supervision although the kids sure loved climbing up the end ladder and seeing the sites from the roof. Does the museum or the park service or ??? have a plan to address the need to paint this locomotive. It is in need of attention and almost detracts from the overall curve experience.

Thanks again Scott, for your response !

My sincere apologies to Mr. Cessna for giving him the impression that I was attempting to speak for the ARRMM. I was attempting to share my agreement with Pullmancar that my first impression of the facility was very akin to his-great interior,lousy exterior. I'm very pleased to read of the $250,000 gift to the quarter roundhouse project as I'm confident that it and the turntable will go a long long way towards bringing up the eye appeal of the frontyard. I would agree that until the exterior of a display piece is completely restored it's better off being out of site rather than a visible detractor.
I will always live in hope that someday the stars will all be in line so that Altoona can fullfill its potential as one of the premier RR historical sites in all of the USA-when the then owner of the mainline will be a true full partner and allow regular steam operations up and around Horseshoe Curve. Until that day arrives we all owe a debt of gratitude to those who are keeping the place alive!
I will redouble my efforts in the future to make sure everyone knows I'm only speaking for myself!
Ross Rowland

While we would certainly love to see steam on Horseshoe Curve, Norfolk Southern IS a "true full partner" in Altoona. Their support of our educational program allowing thousands of school children to be exposed to a railroad history curriculum in school and subsequent no-cost field trips to the Museum and Horseshoe Curve, their support of the 150th Anniversary event at Horseshoe Curve last summer, and their support in providing us ideas and artifacts to continually update the Museum with today's railroading story demonstrate that partnership.

Scott,

I appreciate your response to the issue pertaining to the cooperation between the museum and NS. Can you please be so kind as to comment on the condition of the GP-9 at the Horseshoe Curve. Is the maintenance of that outdoor "display" the responsibility of the museum ? If so, the engine is suffering some neglect, with rust, broken glass etc. As mentioned previously the fenced in area has been left open, therefore making it more desirable for the engine to be a hands on display ( was that intentional or accidental ?

I was extremely happy to hear of the kind gift of 250,000 k for the museum. That certainly will make for a unique display having a operational turntable and a piece of the roundhouse available to store the 1361. Are you able to comment if the design of the roundhouse will resemble a traditional roundhouse ( brick building big windows etc ), or will it be more economical in nature ( butler style metal framed building ).

Thanks again. Your efforts in Altoona, and on line making information available to the general population, is very much appreciated !!

Yes the maintenance of the GP-9 at the Curve is our responsibility. We are aware it badly needs paint and we plan to do that this spring. The fence will most liekly come down and a platform will be built in order to give the public the chance to be on and in the locomotive. I do not subscribe to the opinion that the fence does us any good as it relates to stopping vandalism even if the "gate" was secured. The fence simply isn't high enough anyway.

The roundhouse will resemble a traditional roundhouse depending on the price at which the bids come back. There will most likely be an alternate bid to sheath it in metal siding if brick is outside of the budget. The windows will be a compromise between being reminiscent of a traditional building and the functionality desired in a new structure (interior wall space for exhibitry, utility conservation, etc.). Thank for your interest and support. AS soon as I have some detailed drawings of the building I will post them.

Scott Cessna

By the way, when we open the loco to the public via a stairway, the ladders will have plexiglass placed over then so nobody can climb them.

Scott Cessna

thanks for your kind reply Scott. I am much more informed of the situation along with many others.

I remember some time back reading that the Fruit Growers Express Reefer was being offered for donation to other organizations that were willing to transfer / relocate this car. Wasn't the Nevada Northern just recently looking for affordable period freight cars ?

Did anything ever come of that, and in the future does the museum see the possibility of donating, selling or trading for other equipment.

I know you said the plans for the musuem don't center around aquiring new equipment etc, however does the museum's future see the need to donate, trade or relocate any equipment.

Scott, I and others appreciate understanding the vision of not only the Altoona Museum, others like the B&O, RR Museum of PA, Steamtown and such to see " What the future holds"

thank you for your time

I find this thread interesting because SCRM has gotten similar comments about looking like a railroad junkyard. In our case, we first focused on getting our track up to a safe standard because it's the rides that attract people and pay the bills. Doing so meant that the collection of equipment suffered -- we don't have enough warm bodies to do track work AND restoration work. Now that the track is good and sound, we're finally starting to repaint the equipment to make a better first impression. Getting the "front line" display train painted last year did wonders for our public image.

I understand the Altoona museum's thinking regarding doing the interiors first and waiting on the exteriors. However, speaking from my experience at SCRM, it's not quite the way I'd do things or recommend someone else do it. Generally, I think it's a better idea to get a coat of paint on the outside of the cars first, even if it's only a temporary, single-color "slather it on" job to protect the steel. At least that will give people the first impression that the cars are works in progress rather than "old railroad junk."

Matt,

I read with interest your response to the thread and I believe that this subject certainly merits attention on a number of different fronts. I can name random examples, such as the California State RR museum or the B&O Railroad Museum, that has large equipment collections. These organizations typically have the resources to "conceal or hide " equipment that is not suitable for public display. The patron walks through, and can't help but be impressed, as in most cases the display equipment is in good order or in some cases have a new car showroom finish. I recently returned from a trip to St. Louis at the Museum of Transportation and was amazed as the huge collection of steam, diesel, passenger cars and freight cars. I was more amazed on the overall positive impression the museum offered. A good quantity of the displays were under roof therefore money spent on the displays doesn;t typcially get taken apart by the weather each year.

I would imagine if we more carefully address the issue of equipment falling into disrepair, there are a number of approaches we can take.

Certainly equipment falls into at least these catagories :

1. ) Running and operational where equipment is used ( such as Strasburg )

2. ) Static display equipment at musuems

3. ) Privately owne equipment / stationary or operational

4. ) Publically owned equipment ( locomotives in parks etc )

5.) Railroad owned historical pieces in operation

6. ) Railroad owned historical pieces not in operation / M&W cars etc etc


I believe, as I am entitled to an opinion, ( and I also own a heavyweight Pullman ), that each caretaker ( pick any of the above ), has a fundameal responsibility to address the needs of each outdoor artifact it owns. he Strasburg RR is a prime example. Cars that are not ready for restoration are covered or cacooned in wood to preserve them and not allow the elements to continue the destruction. These cars are not typcially in a place viewed by the paying customer. This is the best scenerio, where cars are stored in order to preserve them for the future.

I believe it greatly hurts the industry, and ultimately we lose priceless artifacts due to a lack of a comprehensive plan on what to do with each car at each place. Example 1 : The GG1 in Baltimore that crashed into DC with the PRR Federal. What is happening with this locomotive. Is a fund railsing effort separate from the museum, addressing the needs of this locomotive that rests in a bad part of town, is rusting away and subject to vandals and the weather ? Again, not being critical, however can't certain projects be brought to vision, through clever fundraising or vision to say " Hey, this thing is a part of history and deserves better. The B&O Museum GG1 is only one example ( and certainly the B&O Museum has had its fair share of problems ) which were handled in a wonderful way.

No matter if its a park locomotive, a heavyweight Pullman or caboose, we as a group must find a way to address the aging condition of much of the outdoor equipment that exist. No matter if its done by corporate sponsership, boy scouts working towards badges, or community awareness, I offer my opinions as ultimately time and the elements are all working against us.

I welcome anyone thoughts. In my eyes, I understand what it takes to restore equipment, I own a operational car. I know the expense and effort, however I also know the reward at the end of the day when the project is done, and others admire the work.

Comments ??

The Fruit Growers Reefer is headed to Savannah, GA shortly. We are happy it is going somewhere that it will be restored, cared for and put on public display. The Museum does not own anything else that we plan to dispose of at the moment. However, we would like to find a Pennsy sleeper to create an exhibit with. We are working with a local group who owns the only named Pennsy RPO to bring #5239, the "Robert E. Hannegan" here to replace our derelict RPO. We may also bring an REX Boxcar here that is owned by the local NRHS Chapter as well as their B60. The local NRHS is also trying to decide exactly what to do with the "Union League Club" and the "Duquesne" - both needing major restoration.

Thanks

Scott Cessna

Scott

Appreciate the information. Thanks a bundle !!! Hopefully those Horseshoe Curve NRHS projects gain some support and become a reality !