I was in Washington last month and went by the Smithsonian to see the Southern 1401. She looks just as nice as ever, but I noticed that they moved in the narrow gauge Baldwin 4-4-0 into Railroad Hall. My question is does anyone know what happened to the 4-2-0 (or was it a 2-2-0) named the "Cumberland" I believe that was originally next to the 1401?

wilkidm@wku.edu

My
> question is does anyone know what happened
> to the 4-2-0 (or was it a 2-2-0) named the
> "Cumberland" I believe that was
> originally next to the 1401?

Bill Withun is in the process of a huge overhaul of the Smithsonian's transportaiton exhibits. As part of the process several of the engines have been relocated, with some going out on loan to Smithsonian affiliates. Your engine, a 2-2-2, actually, the Cumberland Valley's "Pioneer," went to Bethlehem, PA.

Read all about her relocation at the attached link.


Great Locomotive Switch
eledbetter@mail.rypn.org

> My

> Bill Withun is in the process of a huge
> overhaul of the Smithsonian's transportaiton
> exhibits. As part of the process several of
> the engines have been relocated, with some
> going out on loan to Smithsonian affiliates.
> Your engine, a 2-2-2, actually, the
> Cumberland Valley's "Pioneer,"
> went to Bethlehem, PA.

Since its been brought up about the "huge overhaul of the Smithsonian's transportation exhibits", let me stick my two cents in. First of all let me say that I've seen the 1401 and think it looks great! And let me say secondly that I am NOT one of those people who would like to see it out running again; I think it should stay right where it is. But let me also say that I think the Smithsonian has done a bit of a disservice by exhibiting this locomotive as its major monument to the steam era. It is a GREEN locomotive after all which is hardly typical of what 99+% of "workaday" locomotives wore. I've always felt that a "typical" standard gauge steam locomotive (painted BLACK) should share some space with #1401. A 2-8-0 Consolidation would probably be perfect but any type used in freight service would do. And since the engine would never run again, but only be a display, a fixed up "derelict" engine would be OK. I realize that space is at a premium there but I honestly believe that this should be done to tell the public what a "normal" steam locomotive looked like.



midlandblb@cs.com

> Since its been brought up about the
> "huge overhaul of the Smithsonian's
> transportation exhibits", let me stick
> my two cents in. First of all let me say
> that I've seen the 1401 and think it looks
> great! And let me say secondly that I am NOT
> one of those people who would like to see it
> out running again; I think it should stay
> right where it is. But let me also say that
> I think the Smithsonian has done a bit of a
> disservice by exhibiting this locomotive as
> its major monument to the steam era. It is a
> GREEN locomotive after all which is hardly
> typical of what 99+% of "workaday"
> locomotives wore. I've always felt that a
> "typical" standard gauge steam
> locomotive (painted BLACK) should share some
> space with #1401. A 2-8-0 Consolidation
> would probably be perfect but any type used
> in freight service would do. And since the
> engine would never run again, but only be a
> display, a fixed up "derelict"
> engine would be OK. I realize that space is
> at a premium there but I honestly believe
> that this should be done to tell the public
> what a "normal" steam locomotive
> looked like.

I have a suggestion here. Let the Smithsonian apply for a TEA-21 grant to get #1401 out, and sent to Spencer in exchange for a cosmetically restored SR 2-8-0 #542. Once #1401 is at Spencer, she could be put into operating condition and be a marvelous addition to that facility. Yes, I would like to see her run again.


kevingillespie@usa.net

I would think the best typical steamer would be a USRA Pacific or Mikado. Here's an example, take NKP 587, reletter her and do some very slight cosmetic modifications and you have a locomotive that would fit in anywhere in North America. While we are talking about Southern engines, 4501 in black would work pretty well. As far as seeing 1401 run again, I'll take any and as much steam as possible! While we're talking about it, when are you guys in Union going to have CB&Q #3007 out on the road ;) no presure or anything.

Mike Stickel

> I have a suggestion here. Let the
> Smithsonian apply for a TEA-21 grant to get
> #1401 out, and sent to Spencer in exchange
> for a cosmetically restored SR 2-8-0 #542.
> Once #1401 is at Spencer, she could be put
> into operating condition and be a marvelous
> addition to that facility. Yes, I would like
> to see her run again.


masticke@indiana.edu

Hmmmm, swap the 4501 for the 1401????

Okay Mike, you've been wanting a green engine....

aw90h@cs.com

> Hmmmm, swap the 4501 for the 1401????

> Okay Mike, you've been wanting a green
> engine....

Sigh... No, I want THE green engine. ANd for the record, although the 1401 should be in steam and would look fantastic, I've never been a fan of the Ps-4's (save the CNO&TP versions), but rather like the modernized versions of the Ps-2's and Ps-3's and even more so the Ts and Ts-1 class engines. Now if we could get a Frisco 1500 and paint it green, we'd be in business!

Mike

newriver400@cs.com

I think in regard to the 1401, the Smithsonian is making use of what was given to them. It was given the engine several years before the construction of the museum building by the Southern and it sat (if I recall an old photo in TRAINS Mag) partially under cover at a railroad yard until moved into the then under construction building.

Later on John White when writing about railway preservation was to lament that while old and odd engines (The Pioneers and CP Huntingtons of the world) were once saved by RRs, but few of the work-a-day locomotives were saved.

Brian Norden


bnorden@gateway.net

> I have a suggestion here. Let the
> Smithsonian apply for a TEA-21 grant to get
> #1401 out, and sent to Spencer in exchange
> for a cosmetically restored SR 2-8-0 #542.
> Once #1401 is at Spencer, she could be put
> into operating condition and be a marvelous
> addition to that facility. Yes, I would like
> to see her run again.

No, no, a thousand times no.

I have heard both John White and Bill Withuhn go into reflexive head shaking every time (must be daily or weekly) someone (usually some slobbering foamer) suggests that 1401 be liberated for operation. The gist of the standard answer:

--There are dozens of worthy locos out there already underused. Think of NKP 765, PRR 1361, C&O 614, SP 4449, and others that haven't earned their pay yet.
--A 4-6-2 is not big enough for the mainline excursions it would have to pull, and too big to run economically on most tourist railroads.
--The Smithsonian's mission is to encapsulate and preserve intact. As I think White said, "After you guys run all the wheels and boilers off every other steam locomotive you can get your hands on, this one will still be in perfect original condition--and that's our job!"

If every whining so-and-so that wants to "free" 1401 would put money where his mouth is, to the tune of a couple hundred dollars, then fine, we'll be able to build a better, more up-to-code, easier-to-maintain "Ps-5" that will look just the same but operate far more effectively.

Now, on the other hand, I thoroughly second the suggestion to find an appropriate and worthy freight hogger for the Smithsonian's Bethlehem facility. Any suggestions for a loco that is both available and not too much of a basket case?

LNER4472@gateway.net

> But let me also say that
> I think the Smithsonian has done a bit of a
> disservice by exhibiting this locomotive as
> its major monument to the steam era. It is a
> GREEN locomotive after all which is hardly
> typical of what 99+% of "workaday"
> locomotives wore.

None of the vehicles in the Air and Space museum are "typical" planes, either, each is an outstanding example of one thing or another. The 1401 is an example of one of the arguably finest classes of passenger locomotives ever.

Wowak.Railfan.Net
mrwowak@yahoo.com

> None of the vehicles in the Air and Space
> museum are "typical" planes,
> either, each is an outstanding example of
> one thing or another. The 1401 is an example
> of one of the arguably finest classes of
> passenger locomotives ever.

Well, as a former Air and Space Docent I HAVE to chime in: what could be more typical than their DC-3???


Great Locomotive Switch
eledbetter@mail.rypn.org

> Well, as a former Air and Space Docent I
> HAVE to chime in: what could be more typical
> than their DC-3???

You know, it was about a year ago that somebody posted a rumor (on another discussion board, which shall remain nameless) that I had been spotted on Constitution Avenue with structural engineers looking for ways to break out the 1401.
Ah, there are some folks out there who still believe in the tooth ferry!

A couple of observations: 1. Yes, I wish there were a Ps4 still out and about. SR, as I understand it, was willing to provide the town of Spencer with one but at that time nobody wanted one!

2. As for swapping SR 2-8-0 542 for 1401, if you compare the size of the two engines and what we do, puttering around on 3-miles of yard track, you'll agree that that little J class consolidation will be just about right in a few years while 1401 would be like killing gnats with A bombs. As the coal buyer for NCTM, I can tell you that feeding a Ps4 would be a pretty big meal ticket.

3. This is directed to Sandy's quote of John White on the original engine being preserved: You might want to doublecheck that. As I recall, the SR boys in Alexandria who painted the 1401 chromed a lot of parts that weren't chromed and dolled her up a bit more in 1961 than she would have been out on the mainline. It's true, she's complete, but I think she's slightly "over-restored.''

4. My personal desire would be to see several of us in the southeast pool our resources and talents and build a replica Ps4 that could be easily rotated around the region in time for the 100th anniversary of the introduction of the engines in the 2020s.

Any takers?



http://nctrans.org
Wrinnbo@aol.com

Yes, I have the frieght hogger candidates for the Bethlehem museum:

Reading 4-8-4 2101 (currently in her Freedom Train guise in Baltimore)

CNJ 0-6-0 #113 (currently forlorn in Minersville, PA)

Perhaps a few Bethlehem Steel-built frieght cars as well.

Bob

> No, no, a thousand times no.

> I have heard both John White and Bill
> Withuhn go into reflexive head shaking every
> time (must be daily or weekly) someone
> (usually some slobbering foamer) suggests
> that 1401 be liberated for operation. The
> gist of the standard answer:

> --There are dozens of worthy locos out there
> already underused. Think of NKP 765, PRR
> 1361, C&O 614, SP 4449, and others that
> haven't earned their pay yet.
> --A 4-6-2 is not big enough for the mainline
> excursions it would have to pull, and too
> big to run economically on most tourist
> railroads.
> --The Smithsonian's mission is to
> encapsulate and preserve intact. As I think
> White said, "After you guys run all the
> wheels and boilers off every other steam
> locomotive you can get your hands on, this
> one will still be in perfect original
> condition--and that's our job!"

> If every whining so-and-so that wants to
> "free" 1401 would put money where
> his mouth is, to the tune of a couple
> hundred dollars, then fine, we'll be able to
> build a better, more up-to-code,
> easier-to-maintain "Ps-5" that
> will look just the same but operate far more
> effectively.

> Now, on the other hand, I thoroughly second
> the suggestion to find an appropriate and
> worthy freight hogger for the Smithsonian's
> Bethlehem facility. Any suggestions for a
> loco that is both available and not too much
> of a basket case?

Yes, to a degree I think 1401 is over restored. However, when put into context, the Smithsonian was over restoring many of their artifacts at that time period. I remember reading many articles in Smithsonian's Air and Space magazine that discuss just that issue. Many planes at NASM are painted incorrectly, or over restored. The restoration specialists are adopting a new philosophy as to not repeat the same mistakes. The chromed rods on 1401 I believe are a compromise. By chroming them, the Smithsonian was able to best preserve them as they appeared in average use. This beats painting them, of having to constantly coat them with oil. While 1401 isn't an average example of an American steam locomotive, it is a fine example of the Builder's art, and of a railroad that really attempted to make a positive public impression with its locomotives. To counter the 1401, the Jupiter is a fine example of an average American locomotive. The narrow gauge 4-4-0 is a good example of a standard Baldwin design that was copied in several gauges for many different customers. Having both locomotives in place allows a good comparison between the average and above average.

wilkidm@wku.edu

> Well, as a former Air and Space Docent I
> HAVE to chime in: what could be more typical
> than their DC-3???

Because the NASM's DC-3 is a rare version of the airplane. If I am correct, it is the sleeper verson of the plane, something that didn't take off with the airline market. (Pardon the Pun)

wilkidm@wku.edu