In keeping with the spirit of Dave Conrad's excellent two-volume directory of extant North American steam, why not assemble "The Historic Rolling Stock Directory of North America"? This would include all known preserved or privately owned historic passenger and freight equipment built prior to 1970, with a brief description and provenance of each piece. It might sound like a monumental task, but some may recall that David Briggs published a somewhat condensed version of this in 1980 in his "Private Passenger Car Annual" Vol 1 (RPC Publications). This pamphlet was 158pp., with shortline, tourist line, and museum rosters, as well as cars on permanent display and corporate and individual private owner rosters. In this internet age compiling such a "national inventory" of preserved rolling stock could be pulled off. Any visionaries?

Back in 1973 there was published "The Railfan's Guide to Museum & Park Displays". Author (or compiler) was Randolph Kean, pulisher was Harold E. Cox and the copyright was reserved by National Capital Historical Museum of Transportation, Inc.

It has 251, 7-1/2"x8-3/4", comb-bound pages including the listings, some photos, and an index of organizations. It was arranged alphabetical by state and then location. It included both the US and Canada.

I still make use of my copy and find the depth of infomration remarkable.

Brian Norden

bnorden@gateway.net

> In keeping with the spirit of Dave Conrad's
> excellent two-volume directory of extant
> North American steam, why not assemble
> "The Historic Rolling Stock Directory
> of North America"? This would include
> all known preserved or privately owned
> historic passenger and freight equipment
> built prior to 1970, with a brief
> description and provenance of each piece. It
> might sound like a monumental task, but some
> may recall that David Briggs published a
> somewhat condensed version of this in 1980
> in his "Private Passenger Car
> Annual" Vol 1 (RPC Publications). This
> pamphlet was 158pp., with shortline, tourist
> line, and museum rosters, as well as cars on
> permanent display and corporate and
> individual private owner rosters. In this
> internet age compiling such a "national
> inventory" of preserved rolling stock
> could be pulled off. Any visionaries?

K.R. - I like your idea! Since J. David has already at least started an update on his fantastic two volume set on Steam Locomotives, then WHY NOT a book (of two if necessary) on preserved rolling stock? Perhaps passenger equipment in one volume and freight and Maintenance-of-Way equipment in the other. But let's not stop there. A book on preserved electric equipment. One on preserved depots, switch towers and other railroad buildings. And one on diesels and other internal combustion equipment. Perhaps one volume could be scheduled to come out each year. And a final volume could be an update/correction list. Are there authors out there who might tackle this besides Mr. Conrad? Such a set of books would be extremely valuable references for rail preservationists, hobbyists, historians, libraries, etc.

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum)



midlandblb@cs.com

Kurt, you know darn well my views on this matter. Therefore, for everyone else out there, let me espouse at length on why it will never happen in North America.

In the mid-1980s, when I was in college (say hi to Prof. Tolles for me, mate), I attempted sans Internet to compile such a directory. (Those in search of a prototype, seek out "Steam British Isles", an occasional publication by David & Charles Publishing--listing 500 sites completely.) Let me lay out the obstacles before you. There is no profit to be made in this, so it's a labor of love, as I'm sure The Hon. J.D. Conrad can tell you.

A fair estimate of the rolling stock "preserved" in the United States exceeds 10,000. In that, you have a multitude of identities. Just as a random example, are you trying to look for a car on the Tarantula Train, a former Strasburg car, a former NJ Transit car, an EL car, or a DL&W car--all the same car? Try cross-indexing such a list, even with database experts.

Second, my experience with the rail preservation movement has shown that a great majority of preservation efforts do not fully know what they have on hand. You could literally hear them leaning out the window to count the cars when my letters arrived. Certainly, efforts like state museums have tight inventories and records, but look at someplace like the Baltimore Streetcar Museum: they have a finite set of all-Baltimore streetcars, but also a couple buses, a bridge, and two derelict wrecks from elsewhere held for possible rebuild or parts. Do we count the latter?

Also, precisely what do we count as "preserved"? To be brutally honest, I know a couple steamers around I do NOT count as preserved yet: C&O 614 and the Chinese imported steamers. Also, what of some parts sources like the IRM 0-8-0 collection or certain diesels? What of UP 838? The owner of the Baldwin "Sharks" may love them, but are they truly safe yet? Indeed, look at the East Broad Top--nominated on a list of "America's Most Endangered Historic Sites", even though it's "preserved".

Some "preserved" stuff is nomadic. Think private varnish.

Stations and depots--also a must-include--are another kettle of fish. Do we count what's saved as a railroad museum? Any public preservation effort (converted into the town hall, the police station, the city museum, or a courthouse)? Do we count private railroad station dwellings or restaurants?

Finally, there is also the issue of private property to consider. Some locomotives, cars, and stations are owned by private individuals who, although they may share the same goals as preservationists, do not necessarily "get along" with more active and goal-oriented preservationists. I think all the "big names" who read this can relate the tale of some honest-to-goodness "hidden treasure" that they must speak of in evasive, non-specific language. Prime examples would include the Ramsdall Farm and its former SR&RL 0-4-4T 6, now back in Maine; a stash of wooden freight cars somewhere in Pennsylvania; the former West Va. Northern 2-8-0 (or two) in southwestern Pennsylvania; and the former Hampton & Branchville's Edwards motor car now at the North Carolina Transportation Museum. There would have to be a way to quantify such a "preservation" without intruding upon the property owner's rights to be left the heck alone. "Steam British Isles" did so by evasively listing a couple sites/collections while carefully enumerating the contents.

At the moment, I am in contact with several individuals with the computer expertise to assist such a project. However, it is my firm conclusion that without a specific grant by someone like the R&LHS or NRHS, with organized leadership ready and willing to consolidate the existing information out there (in the form of free-lance online databases such as that of the Railroad Station Historical Society and its members' own pages); PLUS being willing to agitate for the completion by "assigning" others to complete missing data......... that such a coherent inventory will never occur.

Of, COURSE, I'd LIKE to be PROVEN WRONG, hint hint, nudge, nudge............

lner4472@bcpl.net

To some degree a proposal suggesting how such a project might be accomplished was written in an LR&P editorial by John Hankey. Counting Cars was possibly the title, though I don't remember the year.

I have often thought that this would be a perfect project for the NRHS as it would actually "do" quite a lot for historic preservation and would suit their mission statement best. As Hankey mentioned, at the very least it would provide a rudimentary list of what is at least "out there" and who has what. His concept that it would help in the understanding of what is truly over and under represented would greatly help in many grant proposals I have writen. Perhaps this would be a project supported by the Smithsonian and administered by NRHS? Is it something a university would take on? I would think that it would have to start only with rolling stock, eventually going towards other artifacts. Also, it seems that the electronic format is the only good way to accomplish this, given the updates and I suspect the size!

David Farlow

I know that this is a project that many have tried, I've sent out at least two dozen rosters from my group in the last ten years.

> However, it is my
> firm conclusion that without a specific
> grant by someone like the R&LHS or NRHS,
> with organized leadership ready and willing
> to consolidate the existing information out
> there (in the form of free-lance online
> databases such as that of the Railroad
> Station Historical Society and its members'
> own pages); PLUS being willing to agitate
> for the completion by "assigning"
> others to complete missing data.........
> that such a coherent inventory will never
> occur.



hudson.industries@worldnet.att.net

They do it in Canada every year. Very nice, too.

Bytown Rwy Society does it as a fund raiser. That's the key.

Rob

Inlinebob@aol.com

This is an extremely well-thought out and logical argument, however I think that - with a slight shift in goals - such a list is possible, if not likely. A list like this could not possibly be totally comprehensive. There are simply preservation opportunities out there that no one knows about - the wood coach ensconced in a shack that will go into a museum in a few years, the diesel that now is still running on a Class I - but it is possible to create a list that is largely complete and that is indicative of the overall state of preservation in North America. Even if the "sample" is as little as 2/3 or 3/4 of preserved railway equipment, we'll still get a pretty good idea of what's out there; and, if the list is well done, it will provide a primer to those who are trying to find extant equipment.

> Try
> cross-indexing such a list, even with
> database experts.

Necessarily, a published work would be nearly impossible to cross-index effectively. Electronic media, however, may be able to accomplish this.

> Second, my experience with the rail
> preservation movement has shown that a great
> majority of preservation efforts do not
> fully know what they have on hand.

This is where the "necessarily incomplete" part comes in.

> Also, precisely what do we count as
> "preserved"?

You would also have to lay definite ground rules about what would, and wouldn't, be considered. Chicken coops probably shouldn't go on a list, but perhaps ex-chicken coops in museums should. Could a criterium be "likeliness to still be in existence 20 years from now"?

> Some "preserved" stuff is nomadic.
> Think private varnish.

Any listing, like Mr. Conrad's, would certainly have to be updated to remain anywhere near complete. Not only does equipment change hands, but museums acquire new equipment and occasionally scrap old equipment.

> Stations and depots--also a
> must-include--are another kettle of fish. Do
> we count what's saved as a railroad museum?

Perhaps you could consider the building's original use and still count it as preserved, even if it isn't preserved in an historical sense. Again, the "likeliness to be around in 20 years" test could apply.

> Finally, there is also the issue of private
> property to consider.

This is certainly a consideration, but I think it is possible to give most owners of equipment a great deal of anonymity while still listing what equipment they own. I think that a large number of people would be content knowing that something is still around, even if they aren't sure where it is or how they would go about seeing it.

Anyway, I certainly agree with you %95 that I don't think a list like this will happen. It would be a herculean undertaking, one which would require so much time, money and effort that it probably isn't likely in our somewhat fragmented national preservation situation. It is nice to dream, though.

frank@gats.com

OK everybody this is a great idea. How about doing it right here at RYPN? If all the major museums could contribute a roster to a site linked to this one it would get the project off to a good start.

And don't forget the street car museums; most of them have at least some railroad stock. My home base, the Western Railway Museum has 5 heavyweight
cars in the collection.

Yes, private preservation is a difficult area, but let's see what the museums have done first. As noted above there have been a couple of lists already published. Ted

ted_miles@NPS.gov

> OK everybody this is a great idea. How about
> doing it right here at RYPN? If all the
> major museums could contribute a roster to a
> site linked to this one it would get the
> project off to a good start.

> And don't forget the street car museums;
> most of them have at least some railroad
> stock. My home base, the Western Railway
> Museum has 5 heavyweight
> cars in the collection.

> Yes, private preservation is a difficult
> area, but let's see what the museums have
> done first. As noted above there have been a
> couple of lists already published. Ted

Here's two to start the list off from the Port Huron Museums. I believe J. David has our steam engine, but just to be sure:

PH&NW #1- 2-4-0 Porter, Bell & Co. Built in 1878 for the Port Huron & Northwestern Railway. From 1933-1960's on display as part of a historical display on logging in Traverse City. Sold to Cedar Point & Lake Erie in 1960's. Sold to Henry Ford Museum in 1970's. Transferred from Henry Ford Museum to Port Huron Museum in 1990. Currently awaiting restoration under covered storage at main museum complex of Port Huron Museum, located at 1115 6th Street, Port Huron, Michigan.

GTW #7365- Originally constructed (?) in 1870's as Chicago & Grand Trunk #1842 as a 58-seat coach (w/ 8-seat smoking section). Converted to a Combination Baagage/ Coach in early 1891 at the Fort Gratiot Car Shops (Car shops burned in 1913; located in Port Huron, Michigan) Became #7365 sometime in 1940's. Was last used in mixed-train service in Grand Rapids in 1954/55. Some pictures of car are shown in the GTW Steam book by Foss. Sold to Grand Rapids Chair Company in 1956. Transferred to Boyne City Railroad sometime in late 1960's. Somehow ended up in Akron, Ohio as part of "Quaker Square" complex. Slated for destruction in 2000, until Cuyahoga Valley Scenic noted Port Huron Museum of its existence. Interior of car is gone; exterior somewhat modified. Is to be used as a display/ gift shop area for Edison Depot Museum satellite site of our museum. Exterior of the car will remain in Combine configuration. We are re-using as many original elements of car as possible. Has been moved to Midland, michigan for restoration; to be transferred back to Port Huron, Michigan Spring of 2002.

Hoes that for a start?

TJG


Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

Stop it right now.

Before information starts flowing willy-nilly onto this bulletin board, which has a life expectancy of weeks, there has to be a place for it to go.

Someone has to be willing to sit and enter the information.
There has to be someplace to enter it.
That place has to be accessible to others.

We have NONE of that in place yet.

lner4472@bcpl.net

> There is no profit to be made in
> this, so it's a labor of love, as I'm sure
> The Hon. J.D. Conrad can tell you.

That is really the biggest show stopper. Everybody wants such a list, but few want to pay for it.

I have only sold roughly 70 copies of the English and French versions of "Surviving World Steam Locomotives". That is less than 1% of the visitors I have had since the website went up. I sure most wanted to find a list they could just download for free.

> A fair estimate of the rolling stock
> "preserved" in the United States
> exceeds 10,000.

That is not a show stopper. Because "Surviving World Steam Locomotives" is worldwide in focus, the latest release will have nearly 18,000 locomotives total.

I started working on "Surviving World Steam Vehicles" on Labor Day of last year, and it is up to 9300 already. It can be done; but don't expect to make any money from all your labors; just hope you help in the preservation effort.

> In that, you have a
> multitude of identities. Just as a random
> example, are you trying to look for a car on
> the Tarantula Train, a former Strasburg car,
> a former NJ Transit car, an EL car, or a
> DL&W car--all the same car? Try
> cross-indexing such a list, even with
> database experts.

This is just a problem in keeping lists of this sort in general. There will be no "magic bullet" to fix it, you just identify duplicates and delete them for the next update. Every six months, I have to purge about a dozen records from "Surviving World Steam Locomotives" because they turn out to be duplicates, but there is nothing unusual about that.

What helps is when you get serial numbers. Without them, that hulk you are looking at could be the same hulk seen elsewhere a few months or years ago. But since name plates get swapped or disappear, even that can often only be a goal, not a means to an end.

Preserved cars would be better about having plates or markings, but even then, it may not be the original plate, or trucks or whatever.

> Second, my experience with the rail
> preservation movement has shown that a great
> majority of preservation efforts do not
> fully know what they have on hand. You could
> literally hear them leaning out the window
> to count the cars when my letters arrived.
> Certainly, efforts like state museums have
> tight inventories and records, but look at
> someplace like the Baltimore Streetcar
> Museum: they have a finite set of
> all-Baltimore streetcars, but also a couple
> buses, a bridge, and two derelict wrecks
> from elsewhere held for possible rebuild or
> parts. Do we count the latter?

I tend to count everything, but that is my personal preference. If a locomotive/vehicle is scrapped, I mark it as such in the notes field for a time, then delete it.

> Also, precisely what do we count as
> "preserved"? To be brutally
> honest, I know a couple steamers around I do
> NOT count as preserved yet: C&O 614 and
> the Chinese imported steamers. Also, what of
> some parts sources like the IRM 0-8-0
> collection or certain diesels? What of UP
> 838? The owner of the Baldwin
> "Sharks" may love them, but are
> they truly safe yet? Indeed, look at the
> East Broad Top--nominated on a list of
> "America's Most Endangered Historic
> Sites", even though it's
> "preserved".

See above. How do you know for certain what will be here today, and gone tomorrow? There have been some shocking losses in the preservation scene in the past few years, while at the same time New Zealand has taken hulks of locomotives out of riverbanks and restored them to operating condition!

> Some "preserved" stuff is nomadic.
> Think private varnish.

As museums are defining their scope, they have been selling/trading lots of equipment lately too. It justs adds some "fun" to this task.

> Finally, there is also the issue of private
> property to consider. Some locomotives,
> cars, and stations are owned by private
> individuals who, although they may share the
> same goals as preservationists, do not
> necessarily "get along" with more
> active and goal-oriented preservationists. I
> think all the "big names" who read
> this can relate the tale of some
> honest-to-goodness "hidden
> treasure" that they must speak of in
> evasive, non-specific language. Prime
> examples would include the Ramsdall Farm and
> its former SR&RL 0-4-4T 6, now back in
> Maine; a stash of wooden freight cars
> somewhere in Pennsylvania; the former West
> Va. Northern 2-8-0 (or two) in southwestern
> Pennsylvania; and the former Hampton &
> Branchville's Edwards motor car now at the
> North Carolina Transportation Museum. There
> would have to be a way to quantify such a
> "preservation" without intruding
> upon the property owner's rights to be left
> the heck alone. "Steam British
> Isles" did so by evasively listing a
> couple sites/collections while carefully
> enumerating the contents.

True. In my list, I will list the person's name, city, and state, along with the remark "private"; but I can just list it as "private" with the city and state.

> At the moment, I am in contact with several
> individuals with the computer expertise to
> assist such a project. However, it is my
> firm conclusion that without a specific
> grant by someone like the R&LHS or NRHS,
> with organized leadership ready and willing
> to consolidate the existing information out
> there (in the form of free-lance online
> databases such as that of the Railroad
> Station Historical Society and its members'
> own pages); PLUS being willing to agitate
> for the completion by "assigning"
> others to complete missing data.........
> that such a coherent inventory will never
> occur.

The internet certainly makes this task easier; were it not for the hundreds of contacts, publications, bulletin boards, and webpages, what I have done would not have been possible. (My heartfelt thanks to all who have helped, also for free just because they wanted to help.)

In starting such a project, don't forget Roger Kirkpatrick's book/list of captive cabeese. Like myself, he has been working on this for years; and I am sure he isn't a millionare from his work either. :D

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Locomotives

james1@pernet.net

> There is no profit to be made in
> this, so it's a labor of love, as I'm sure
> The Hon. J.D. Conrad can tell you.

That is really the biggest show stopper. Everybody wants such a list, but few want to pay for it.

I have only sold roughly 70 copies of the English and French versions of "Surviving World Steam Locomotives". That is less than 1% of the visitors I have had since the website went up. I sure most wanted to find a list they could just download for free.

> A fair estimate of the rolling stock
> "preserved" in the United States
> exceeds 10,000.

That is not a show stopper. Because "Surviving World Steam Locomotives" is worldwide in focus, the latest release will have nearly 18,000 locomotives total.

I started working on "Surviving World Steam Vehicles" on Labor Day of last year, and it is up to 9300 already. It can be done; but don't expect to make any money from all your labors; just hope you help in the preservation effort.

> In that, you have a
> multitude of identities. Just as a random
> example, are you trying to look for a car on
> the Tarantula Train, a former Strasburg car,
> a former NJ Transit car, an EL car, or a
> DL&W car--all the same car? Try
> cross-indexing such a list, even with
> database experts.

This is just a problem in keeping lists of this sort in general. There will be no "magic bullet" to fix it, you just identify duplicates and delete them for the next update. Every six months, I have to purge about a dozen records from "Surviving World Steam Locomotives" because they turn out to be duplicates, but there is nothing unusual about that.

What helps is when you get serial numbers. Without them, that hulk you are looking at could be the same hulk seen elsewhere a few months or years ago. But since name plates get swapped or disappear, even that can often only be a goal, not a means to an end.

Preserved cars would be better about having plates or markings, but even then, it may not be the original plate, or trucks or whatever.

> Second, my experience with the rail
> preservation movement has shown that a great
> majority of preservation efforts do not
> fully know what they have on hand. You could
> literally hear them leaning out the window
> to count the cars when my letters arrived.
> Certainly, efforts like state museums have
> tight inventories and records, but look at
> someplace like the Baltimore Streetcar
> Museum: they have a finite set of
> all-Baltimore streetcars, but also a couple
> buses, a bridge, and two derelict wrecks
> from elsewhere held for possible rebuild or
> parts. Do we count the latter?

I tend to count everything, but that is my personal preference. If a locomotive/vehicle is scrapped, I mark it as such in the notes field for a time, then delete it.

> Also, precisely what do we count as
> "preserved"? To be brutally
> honest, I know a couple steamers around I do
> NOT count as preserved yet: C&O 614 and
> the Chinese imported steamers. Also, what of
> some parts sources like the IRM 0-8-0
> collection or certain diesels? What of UP
> 838? The owner of the Baldwin
> "Sharks" may love them, but are
> they truly safe yet? Indeed, look at the
> East Broad Top--nominated on a list of
> "America's Most Endangered Historic
> Sites", even though it's
> "preserved".

See above. How do you know for certain what will be here today, and gone tomorrow? There have been some shocking losses in the preservation scene in the past few years, while at the same time New Zealand has taken hulks of locomotives out of riverbanks and restored them to operating condition!

> Some "preserved" stuff is nomadic.
> Think private varnish.

As museums are defining their scope, they have been selling/trading lots of equipment lately too. It justs adds some "fun" to this task.

> Finally, there is also the issue of private
> property to consider. Some locomotives,
> cars, and stations are owned by private
> individuals who, although they may share the
> same goals as preservationists, do not
> necessarily "get along" with more
> active and goal-oriented preservationists. I
> think all the "big names" who read
> this can relate the tale of some
> honest-to-goodness "hidden
> treasure" that they must speak of in
> evasive, non-specific language. Prime
> examples would include the Ramsdall Farm and
> its former SR&RL 0-4-4T 6, now back in
> Maine; a stash of wooden freight cars
> somewhere in Pennsylvania; the former West
> Va. Northern 2-8-0 (or two) in southwestern
> Pennsylvania; and the former Hampton &
> Branchville's Edwards motor car now at the
> North Carolina Transportation Museum. There
> would have to be a way to quantify such a
> "preservation" without intruding
> upon the property owner's rights to be left
> the heck alone. "Steam British
> Isles" did so by evasively listing a
> couple sites/collections while carefully
> enumerating the contents.

True. In my list, I will list the person's name, city, and state, along with the remark "private"; but I can just list it as "private" with the city and state.

> At the moment, I am in contact with several
> individuals with the computer expertise to
> assist such a project. However, it is my
> firm conclusion that without a specific
> grant by someone like the R&LHS or NRHS,
> with organized leadership ready and willing
> to consolidate the existing information out
> there (in the form of free-lance online
> databases such as that of the Railroad
> Station Historical Society and its members'
> own pages); PLUS being willing to agitate
> for the completion by "assigning"
> others to complete missing data.........
> that such a coherent inventory will never
> occur.

The internet certainly makes this task easier; were it not for the hundreds of contacts, publications, bulletin boards, and webpages, what I have done would not have been possible. (My heartfelt thanks to all who have helped, also for free just because they wanted to help.)

In starting such a project, don't forget Roger Kirkpatrick's book/list of captive cabeese. Like myself, he has been working on this for years; and I am sure he isn't a millionare from his work either. :D

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Locomotives
james1@pernet.net

I hereby challenge, openly and publicly, any rail preservation or historic effort, to begin structuring the framework for such a preservation database IMMEDIATELY.

By whatever means necessary (formal motions, an endowment, a gift, a one-time grant, etc.), SOMEONE--the NRHS, the R&LHS, the Hagley Museum, the Smithsonian, a library, etc.--must undertake an initiative to form the basis for a database of ALL railroad history. The preservation inventory is the tip of the iceberg.

Through a formalized directory, one could find not just the roster of the Strasburg Rail Road, but also the database of surviving Santa Fe stations, the history of the Trona RR, and links to pages for various historical societies.

Thousands of railroad history and data collections are rotting on shelves or posted online, with naught but the hopes that search engines will find them to make them available to researchers--like the girl doing a high-school history project. Nearly all of these are volunteer efforts, simply labors of love.

I realize the ramifications of what I'm proposing. Once set up, someone has to pay for the (possibly massive) Internet server space. Eventually, some administrator/editor would have to end up as a paid staffer, separating wheat from chaff and fraud from reality. It would involve a foundation or annual endowment, applying for funding from public and/or private sources. Perhaps an annual R&LHS award or awards would be made to the worthiest contributions of information.

But I ask each and every one of you--are we playing with trains, or are we as a community going to get serious about railroad history?

lner4472@bcpl.net

I hereby make my first nomination for a Railroad History Database Grant Award:

Would whatever Powers That Be that eventually accept the challenge I made above please consider making a grant to Brother Hefner to purchase the rights to his database and integrate it (along with J. David's work, after a similar grant to him) into said database online?

lner4472@bcpl.net

As mentioned above, a complete US preservation listing would be formidible, and has stalled with several previous attempts. The Canadian Trackside Guide is certainly a good model and quite accurate also. Down here, we might do better compiling on a state-by-state basis. Dave Kovl did a good job on Michigan several years ago, with at least three paperback books. For this kind of information, I think the internet is the only way to go, print usually being outdated as soon as it comes off the presses.

bobyar2001@yahoo.com