Reading Kurt Bell's viewpoint on preservation and also reading the pontification about how that most hobbyist board's dont' get it made me realize how much, for once, i prefer to be in the middle.

I agree there is a place for bondafide preservation. For example, the Edwards car acquired a couple of years ago at Spencer was cleaned and minimal restoration work done on the roof--but otherwise it was left "as it has been." What you see is mostly weathered 1926 hand lettering, signage, interor, etc. It is preserved for all times.

At the same time, we've got BC&G 4 and GCRR 1925 shuffling around the yard, blowing smoke, smelling of hot oil, rods/gears clanking, pumps running, injectors, going on/off etc. What I think we're doing here is preserving sensations, sights, sounds-an experience.

So, my advocacy is that we have some of both. I don't think that everything needs to run or hit the scrapper, but at the same time, I don't think everything needs to be set aside for posterity.
There are four steam engines in the Spencer Roundhouse that will never see steam on the gauge, and that's the way it should be. But there are two, and possibly a third one day, that should continue to shuttle about the yard. Both are doing for the visitors what they should do.


http://nctrans.org
Wrinnbo@aol.com

I agree mostly with what Jim says. Its good to have both aspects if possible.
For those who want only preservation with stuffed and mounted artifacts, there are more and more of them today versus 10 years ago such as N&W 611 and 1218. Sure I miss seeing and riding behind them, but more importantly how did this effect the entire enthusiast base, and those who may have had interests in other aspects of railway preservation. Preservation is more than simply mounting some artifact on a pedistal in a spic and span building.
I think the average individual will be drawn by the operating aspects, and then stick around to explore displays and other forms of preservation. However, given the choice between visiting a train ride or a static museum many might choose to go for the ride.
I feel the loss of the NS Steam program for example hurt everyone as a ripple effect. I knew quasi-fans whose one trip a year on a steam trip renewed their interest, and they would explore their interests further by visiting some other tourist railroad, or by books and other railroad entertainment. After the excursions stopped so too did their spin-off interests to a large degree. My main point here is that operating trains do a world of good for all concerned, and if it means satisfying somebody with a smoky shot once in awhile, why not let them enjoy a dream come true, or a step-back in time.
Sorry my soapbox got so tall.
Happy Holidays.
Steamingly,
Greg Scholl

sales@gregschollvideo.com

Thank you for bringing some balance to the subject. There's more to a musuem than glass cases and static displays. Experience IS part of the equation and the type and amount of experience is driven by a slew of factors.

Many museum-type items are in the static realm where returning the item to operation isn't realistic, or better, practical. Such as the Steamship Mather in Cleveland. It is still afloat, but not intended to go on cruises, it is, however, in the process of restoration to its original interior appearance and a couple of different guided tours are offered. It is worth the visit if you are in that area. (The Caterpillar genset is still operational and is used when doing some chores). The boilers and its 5,000 hp compound turbine are likely to stay cold forever.

On the other hand, a steam locomotive can be returned to a service that somewhat mirrors it's first life in that they don't run 24/7 (except for the winter olympics in UT this coming year) as they once did until they outlived their usefulness like any capital equipment in a functioning business.

Hi,

I'd also like to point out that by mounting everything the knowledge and skills needed to maintain and operate that type of machinery is lost through the generations. It's evident in many occupations that have been lost through the generations.

By displaying the artifact, the personal experience is lost. An engineer may be placed in the seat, but what was his job? He didn't just drive the train, but by waving at all the young kids along the tracks, he inspired them. You can't get that from a wax figure.

In the old car hobby, there are some that don't drive there cars and some that do. Some people restore there cars to better than factory new and some don't restore them at all. I think it all boils down to a judgement call. Do you take this locomotive that has been sitting in a field for 50 years and all the appliances robbed, cab rotted off, boiler lagging wholy and restore it or do you preserve it as a rusting hulk? Is it the only one or are there many of the same type? It's the same with old cars. If I owned a car that had never been restored and was in worn, but original condition, I would elect to leave it as it was, but I would have it in operating condition and take it to shows, but if I built a car from parts like a Model T Ford, I would restore it to like it was new and drive the wheels off of it. Many read about Model T's in the history books, but not many get the chance to see one run let alone ride in it.

Ok, I relinquish my soapbox to another.

Later,

Stuart

Mid-South Rail Heritage Foundation
gnufe@apex.net

> Reading Kurt Bell's viewpoint on
> preservation and also reading the
> pontification about how that most hobbyist
> board's dont' get it made me realize how
> much, for once, i prefer to be in the
> middle.

At the Huckleberry RR we are very clearly a tourist Railroad. Our goal is operation - while we only haul people, we operate very much like any short-line railroad.

> At the same time, we've got BC&G 4 and
> GCRR 1925 shuffling around the yard, blowing
> smoke, smelling of hot oil, rods/gears
> clanking, pumps running, injectors, going
> on/off etc. What I think we're doing here is
> preserving sensations, sights, sounds-an
> experience.

We are preserving something besides the equipment - we are also preserving a way of life. I try to run the Huck like a short line was run in the steam era. I think we do a pretty good job, too. The atmosphere in our shop is about as close as you can get to "The Way Things Were".


Martyhuck@aol.com

Of course there is a balance to be had, but I think the quote from Kurt Bell has been misinterpreted. He was discussing the "everything must run" attitude, not the balanced viewpoint.

I am sure you have had guys at Spencer who have wanted everything to run, right?

It's not that most hobbyists "don't get it." They get it fine, but from a hobby point of view, not from a custodian of history point of view.

I know I am drifting a little bit, but look at what is going on with the 4 Reading T-1's. You have #2102 privately owned awaiting some sort of financial windfall to get her 3rd (4th?) post-Reading restoration. #2100 was heavily modified in private hands and is now for sale. She has gone through two post-Reading restorations and is operable. And then there is #2101, who sits in Baltimore and is the subject of rumors every 3 months. She has been rebuilt once post Reading.

So, of these three T-1's, there is one for sale, one waiting money and one that may never run again. All three have post-Reading work done to them.

And then there is #2124 in Scranton, which has not been serviced since her Reading days.

And which one are railfans trying to raise money for? #2124 of course! The only one that hasn't been messed with yet!

If it so important to have an operable T-1 in PA, why aren't the buffs starting a care-taking fund for #2102 or to buy #2100?

Many reasons, I am sure, but part of it has been expressed to me by those involved that she is the only one not to have run since the Reading days, so we need to see her run.

Bull!

I would bet that if either #2102 or #2100 were presented on a lease to Steamtown, they'd run them. And then dear #2124 could be the subject of a campaign to raise money to get her indoors and preserve her, rather than run her and consume her.

As we have discussed here before, it would be nice to see responsible preservation and conservation wide-spread in the railroad community, where more engines are set aside never to be rebuilt for operation, and thus future generations can have the opportunity to see them in their historical fabric.

All the other artifacts we can run the heck out of, because the experience, like the Huckleberry post notes, is also equally worthy of interpretation.

I would guess that the engines at Spencer which you will not run are not set aside because of their excellent condition... they probably are basket cases you will restore cosmetically. Am I right?

The irony seems to be that steam locomotives in the best condition are the one's we operate, because they are the "cheap" restorations.

What that means is that 50-100 years down the road the only engines we'll have left in mostly original fabric are the one's that already basket cases.

Is that serving history?

Could #1401, Baldwin #60000 and a small handful of others be the only "authentic" steam era relics we have left in a hundred years?

I know that is a little dramatic, but I guess the point is that there is a time to say that the value of the artifact is greater than the value of the foamer.

Back to the quote and the reason I pulled it out for discussion... the issue is not black and white, but the needs of the Brazilian are much less than the needs of the artifact in most cases.

Rob Davis

> Reading Kurt Bell's viewpoint on
> preservation and also reading the
> pontification about how that most hobbyist
> board's dont' get it made me realize how
> much, for once, i prefer to be in the
> middle.

> I agree there is a place for bondafide
> preservation. For example, the Edwards car
> acquired a couple of years ago at Spencer
> was cleaned and minimal restoration work
> done on the roof--but otherwise it was left
> "as it has been." What you see is
> mostly weathered 1926 hand lettering,
> signage, interor, etc. It is preserved for
> all times.

> At the same time, we've got BC&G 4 and
> GCRR 1925 shuffling around the yard, blowing
> smoke, smelling of hot oil, rods/gears
> clanking, pumps running, injectors, going
> on/off etc. What I think we're doing here is
> preserving sensations, sights, sounds-an
> experience.

> So, my advocacy is that we have some of
> both. I don't think that everything needs to
> run or hit the scrapper, but at the same
> time, I don't think everything needs to be
> set aside for posterity.
> There are four steam engines in the Spencer
> Roundhouse that will never see steam on the
> gauge, and that's the way it should be. But
> there are two, and possibly a third one day,
> that should continue to shuttle about the
> yard. Both are doing for the visitors what
> they should do.


superc@monmouth.com

I think the whole idea of trying to keep something perfectly intact as "Original" is silly!
After all what is original...The only engine that is original is one built in China or someplace like that, and it was never outshopped where parts were changed out. Every engine went through parts replacement during its lifetime.

Who cares if 611 or another engine is used up, and retains old flues in it. Nobody is going to see them anyway if its on display!!! So, I suppose by overhauling an engine such as 611 down the road, it is no longer authentic? I don't see the big deal here guys!

Given the state of mainline steam in the US, I think we should be thankful we have what we do operational, and not worry about it being an over-abundance that will be all used up. These things tend to run in cycles, so enjoy whatever you can before they are gone. Hey look at 2860, 3716, 2839,611,1218,etc. They may never run again, but I don't think the historical authenticity is affected one bit, but other economical factors are the culprit!
Greg Scholl

Videos
sales@gregschollvideo.com

>I THINK THE EFFORT W/ TH 2124 IS BASED ON HER ROLLER BEARINGS-NOT PRESENT IN THE 00, 01 or 02.

Also that so called fundraising effort isn't going to bear fruit anytime soon.. inaddition to getting or keeping the 26, 2317 & 3254 up, the 3713 & 759 are ahead on the list-don't worry!

Greg,

You are missing the point a bit.

And I have to tease you a little... since you remind us with every post that you run a video business which relies on current steam ops, you fall in the category of those who need to have these artifacts running.

The idea of original is guff to a railfan, but not to a preservationist. And yes, parts were exchanged all through service of locomotives. Tenders, boilers some times, down to minor parts.

But when these engines left service, the parts on them (most of the time) were the parts they ran with. It would be nice to keep some that way. Especially those which were overhauled late in their service days.

That's the point.

Run some, leave the really historic ones alone.

I fear, Greg, you are in the camp that Kurt Bell was discussing. Railfans are not always good custodians of artifacts.

And that raises a question/ If these are toys, then is any rail museum legit? If we can play, rebuild, modify and consume our artifact, do they really have any value?

Rob Davis

> I think the whole idea of trying to keep
> something perfectly intact as
> "Original" is silly!
> After all what is original...The only engine
> that is original is one built in China or
> someplace like that, and it was never
> outshopped where parts were changed out.
> Every engine went through parts replacement
> during its lifetime.

> Who cares if 611 or another engine is used
> up, and retains old flues in it. Nobody is
> going to see them anyway if its on
> display!!! So, I suppose by overhauling an
> engine such as 611 down the road, it is no
> longer authentic? I don't see the big deal
> here guys!

> Given the state of mainline steam in the US,
> I think we should be thankful we have what
> we do operational, and not worry about it
> being an over-abundance that will be all
> used up. These things tend to run in cycles,
> so enjoy whatever you can before they are
> gone. Hey look at 2860, 3716,
> 2839,611,1218,etc. They may never run again,
> but I don't think the historical
> authenticity is affected one bit, but other
> economical factors are the culprit!
> Greg Scholl


superc@monmouth.com

> Many reasons, I am sure, but part of it has
> been expressed to me by those involved that
> she is the only one not to have run since
> the Reading days, so we need to see her run.

> Bull!

> I would bet that if either #2102 or #2100
> were presented on a lease to Steamtown,
> they'd run them. And then dear #2124 could
> be the subject of a campaign to raise money
> to get her indoors and preserve her, rather
> than run her and consume her.

As the prime knucklehead behind http://restore2124.railfan.net, I assure you that "Shes the only one that hasn't run" has never been a consideration.

Andy Muller's 2102 was AT Steamtown from 1995 to 1998. My understanding is that unless someone else pays, 2102 stays cold. No museum in its' right mind would accept a leased engine under the condition that they rebuild it, when they have their own engines to rebuild and operate. So whatever may come, 2102 operating in the near future is very unlikely. 2101 was damaged in a fire and would likely require as much work as 2124 to rebuild. 2100.. well.. I figure she'll be in Canada forever at this rate... Like people who "Hot Rod" their cars, Mr. Payne doesn't seem to realize that you can't factor work done into the total cost of something you're selling.

Although the "historical fabric" arguement is in many cases a valid one, I think its pretty much invalidated in the case of 2124. Like many early tourist line engines, 2124 was rode hard and put away wet. Combine that with 37 years of exposure to the elements, and theres very little "fabric" worth saving, unless rust is now historic.

In my opinion, a full restoration would at this point be the best case for 2124. Putting her indoors at this point will not reverse 37 years of deterioration, and that deterioration has likely already destroyed any historical value that a full restoration of, say, 1401 would destroy.

If there were a viable way to run any of the other Ts at Steamtown, I'd be that plan's most ardent supporter. But since they're all long shots, I'll stick with 2124.

> The idea of original is guff to a railfan,
> but not to a preservationist. And yes, parts
> were exchanged all through service of
> locomotives. Tenders, boilers some times,
> down to minor parts.

> But when these engines left service, the
> parts on them (most of the time) were the
> parts they ran with. It would be nice to
> keep some that way. Especially those which
> were overhauled late in their service days.

2124 is the antithesis of this.

7002 is the example you're looking for. But as I said elsewhere... very little of the "history" of the Altoona rebuild would have ever been known, uncovered or documented had it not been for Linn and his crew tearing her down and rebuilding her.

Its a double-edged sword.

1401 is the other one. Late-life rebuild, then right to permanent entombment.

Maybe we should carefully disasseble key assemblys to learn how the rebuild was handled? If that never happens, then really what IS the good of having that "historic fabric?" She'd be every bit as impressive in the great hall if she had worn out flues. Not that I advocate running her... but maybe in some far future time, when all our other mainliners have been used up and scrapped in a metal drive for WWIII, The Smith' will take her out, light her fire and show a world thats never seen a live steam engine what the magic was about. THAT would be worth it. For now, shes Steamdom's time capsule.

Actually, the Reading locomotives have seen an excellent history of operation. I agree that having them running again would be my first choice, but seeing as how we've seen them for so long in the post-steam era, perhaps something else should get the nod?
2124 should get complete cosmetic and stabilation work, then be stored in a fireproof, wet-proof building, with full access for the future. I deally, getting all four T-1's back together for operation would be ideal. It isn't likely to happen, but never say never.
Archaeology is far enough advanced today that photographs, ultra-sounds, digitalized imaging, metallurgy, etc., can document a particular locomotive quite well. In the meantime, an operational restoration of say, the E6, #460, could be undertaken with full documentation. A working locomotive serves to educate more fully than does an inert, cold, boiler in a semi-lit building. Both have their places, but steam was built for the soul. Sorry, but that's the bottom line.

glueck@saturn.caps.maine.edu

In 1989 we had the boiler of our steam traction engine condemned by inspectors, but it was our pride and joy, and everyone enjoyed seeing it run, seeing it work, listening to the sights sounds and smells of a working engine. We did a complete tear down of the engine (and yes the inspectors did do the right thing) and removed the boiler, the boiler was sent out to make a pattern for a replacement in Seaforth Ontario.
What we got back was a welded boiler, with a ASME stamp, capable of safely holding 250psi (working pressure is 175 max). After reinstalling the boiler, lagging and jacketing it, the only indication that it is not orignal is the lack of the butt strap that used to show up on the smokebox. We even joked about welding a fake one on. We saved the old boiler, and it now sits in the back 40 for anyone that cares to see it. What is my point? Steam engines are a sensory experience, and we can now enjoy all the same sounds, smells, shakes and rattles in relative safety, knowing our engine isn't going to suffer the same fate as the one in Medina Ohio. Have I ever given a second thought to "destroying historic fabric", ..nope, but I must say having the boiler inspector, the insurance agency and others give their nod of approval makes you forget about that stuff. The general public also breaths a sigh of relief when you tell them too. So here it is, some things are worth more alive than dead, and I for one would much rather notch out the throttle and pull that whistle, than have it sitting dead collecting pidgeon poop in a barn, because I was too afraid to rebuild. If that bothers people too much, do what we did, save the original boiler (or insert piece here) on display, do a little write up on why it was necessary to do the upgrade. Am I advocating putting a pratt and whitney jet engine on a spitfire,no I'm not, but if it needed a new tire to replace the worn out original to land safely, hey, its going to happen to keep it in the air.

b.hume@rogers.com

My first comment to the "Let's keep it pristine" set is, "Do you change the oil on your automobile?" When they reply, "Of course I do," I then ask them if it then a "new car."

As has been pointed out in this discussion, 7002 was renumbered and "backdated" by the PRR to represent the original 7002 which had long since been scrapped. It was rebuilt again in the 80's at Strasburg for operation, and the chalk marks were well documented at the time. So, if she was rebuilt again, it would probably change very little of the fabric from her service life, and simply update the 1980's repairs.

460 on the other hand is the original "Lindbergh" engine and sits basically unaltered from the time she was in PRR service, plus the damage she received by sitting outside for 10 years or so before the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania was built.

I hope they are not that serious about preserving her "Altoona fabric," because the only way to properly show her innards to the public would be to section her like was done to an 0-6-0 at Scranton, and to the "Merchant Navy" Pacific "Ellerman Lines" at the National Railway Museum in York. I have not seen the 0-6-0, but I will tell you that seeing "Ellerman Lines" in the state she is in nearly caused me to lose the delicious breakfast I had eaten on the train on the way up from London.

The B&O Railroad Museum has another way of showing the innards of a steam locomotive without
destroying an engine. There is a beautiful cutaway brass model of P7 4-6-2 "President Washington" in a case inside the roundhouse where
all the parts are identified. The (original) "President Washington" herself can be seen outside awaiting a cosmetic restoration.



kevingillespie@usa.net

> My first comment to the "Let's keep it
> pristine" set is, "Do you change
> the oil on your automobile?" When they
> reply, "Of course I do," I then
> ask them if it then a "new car."

I like that....... can I use it? I hope they are not that serious about
> preserving her "Altoona fabric,"
> because the only way to properly show her
> innards to the public would be to section
> her like was done to an 0-6-0 at Scranton,
> and to the "Merchant Navy" Pacific
> "Ellerman Lines" at the National
> Railway Museum in York. I have not seen the
> 0-6-0, but I will tell you that seeing
> "Ellerman Lines" in the state she
> is in nearly caused me to lose the delicious
> breakfast I had eaten on the train on the
> way up from London.

Oh, puh-leeeeze.......... That steam locomotive is a serious candidate for "most over-preserved class of locomotive in Britain". Besides, my recollection was that the particular locomotive sectioned was among the worst of the dozen or more pulled out of the Barry scrapyard--that on top of several preserved before the Barry miracle.

Put it another way--if someone offered to do such a brilliant sectioning job on a real steam locomotive, and make room for its display at the Museum of Science & Industry, or the new science museum in Richmond, or the Smithsonian, or Steamtown....... and the loco offered was the Lynchburg rustbucket C&O 2-8-4 (of which many others of C&O and NKP survive)..... would you protest?

lner4472@bcpl.net