I have just been advised that the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay is in the process of scrapping the Atlantic Coast Line LW sleeper Manatee River (AC&F, 1949), built as a 14 Rmt - 2 DR car, and rebuilt in 1961 as a 2 DR - 7 Dbl BR named Rice Bird. Car became Amtrak 2304. I'm not sure when it went to Green Bay.

Can anyone provide independent confirmation of this, and what other cars they plan on removing from their collection? My understanding is there are maybe 14 pieces they intend to get rid of. The latest photo of Rice Bird did not show it to be too bad, although looks can be deceiving. It has been outdoors on exhibit, or so I gather from the photos.

I have seen no postings about any deaccessioning process or making any unwanted artifacts available to other museums. Has anyone?

Thanks,

Where are you getting your information from???

For now, I am considering this as rumor, but someone who knows of my interest in surviving ACL equipment passed this on to me. I am hoping it is not true, which is why I am seeking independent confirmation.

As I noted, a photo I saw of the car taken within the past 12 months seemed to show a car in reasonably good shape. If there is good reason to scrap it it was not evident from the photo. Could the car find a new home rather than get scrapped?

With museums generally making a better effort to rationalize their collections, is scrapping the only/best option? I would have liked the opportunity to discuss the future of this car if it is in fact becoming scrap as I write. The unfortunate reality is that the scrap value of cars is becoming (or already is) greater than a museum could expect to get from another museum that might be able to use the car. How many cars are we going to lose to scrap for purely monetary reasons, especially now with the cash boost that could be gained in this time of elevated scrap steel pricing? Not saying that is any motivation at Green Bay, but I never heard anything about the museum wanting to thin their collection...supposedly one of "national" scope. But unless you have been there you have no idea what they have since there is no roster info on the web site.

So, can anyone confirm or refute this? And please...this is not intended as any sort of attack on the museum. Just trying to find out what is going on with a certain piece of ACL equipment and anything else that may be made available.

They have a really nice staff directory on their Web site--why not drop them a line and just ask, colleague to colleague?

http://www.nationalrrmuseum.org/en-Us/about/staff_directory/default.aspx

Thanks, Eric. I think I will.

BTW, I have been pointed to a Wikipedia page that indicates the car in question is not the car I thought, but is rather the 2nd ACL Manatee River, a 4-4-2 purchased 1962, ex-NYC Suspension Bridge rebuilt 1949, ne- Pullman Company/NYC Imperial Arch, built 1938. However...

Interestingly, the 2nd Manatee River was a smooth-sided car, and the Manatee River at Green Bay is a full corrugated stainless steel car. The 6 ex-NYC "River" series ACL cars were noted as rough riding and as being unpopular with passengers because of open toilets. The published source I have indicates this car was scrapped by D.J. Joseph in Tampa, FL in 1970, along with Kissimmee River, Ortega River and Savannah River.

So, for my 2-cents worth, I believe the car at Green Bay is/was the 1st Manatee River, rebuilt by Pullman in 1961 as noted in my original post on the subject. The window arrangement matches the 1st Manatee River, not the 2nd Manatee River. I can't imagine ACL or Amtrak spending the money to put corrugated stainless on an unpopular car, and I tend to believe the published source of my info about the scrapping of the 2nd Manatee River in 1970. I can, however, see replacement of carbon steel to try and reduce the well known issues of the carbon steel vs. stainless steel when the car was rebuilt in 1961.

So, with this little exercise we see how unofficial roster info isn't always correct, and, perhaps, that Wiki info isn't always reliable.

Last fall I saw a list (that I wasn't supposed to see) of the cars the NRRM plans to get rid of. It included just about every freight car in the collection, plus some of the passenger cars and even a few diesel locomotives. I don't remember if the Rice Bird was on the list.

It was my understanding that the cars would be offered to other historicial groups before scrapping was considered.

Jeff Terry

I saw the Manatee last summer and it had so much rust damage it really could not be moved. Scraping was really the only option !

Jeff,

Assuming that there's even an iota of truth in this supposed list, I for one would be forced to ask: Exactly what the heck is their point, anyway? If one disposes of all the freight cars and a lot of passenger cars, how can they even pretend to call themselves a "National Railroad Museum" with utterly no context?

Is it at all possible that what they plan to get rid of is considered just too badly deteriorated for anyone absent a major restoration shop like TVRM/Strasburg/B&O to tackle?

Given the new building I saw under construction in 2004 (days before my wedding), this about face--IF TRUE--is nothing short of shocking. What gives, pray tell?

Sorry to hear that. Was the rust damage structural in nature...badly corroded side sills and such? Was anything salvaged from the car? What else is on the list for disposal?

Is there any history available on this car? When sold by Amtrak to private ownership? When did it come to the museum?

The only other ACL "Bird" car I was aware of until now is in the New Orleans area. I saw it back in 2003, and there was discussion then of scrapping it, but the owner wasn't interested in selling. It appeared to be in much worse condition than the Manatee River/Rice Bird.

BTW, I am awaiting a response to an e-mail I sent to the museum curator Wednesday afternoon. Thanks for the suggestion, Erik.

Here is the list of freight equipment in the National Railroad Museum collection as indicated in the Wikipedia page:

Freight cars

* Akron, Canton & Youngstown No. 3011 - Outside braced boxcar
* American Cyanamid No. CYX 134 - Covered hopper
* Armour Company refrigerator car PCX 4408
* Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe No. 206983 - Flat car
* Union Refrigerated Transit Company refrigerator car URTX 72733 - leased to Black Hills Packing Company
* Illinois Central Gulf No. ICG 910302 - Flat car
* Menasha Wooden Ware Company boxcar 242 - Replica boxcar
* Minneapolis, St. Paul and Sault Ste. Marie Railway ("Soo Line") ore hopper car SOO 80374
* Swift Refrigerator Line wooden refrigerator car No. SRLX5156
* Standard Oil Company Single-dome tank car No. AMOX 9758 -
* North American Car Company double door boxcar No. NADX 50143
* North American Car Company covered hopper No. NAHX 30133
* PLM Railway (France) Forty-and-eights boxcar - from Merci Train
* Richter Vinegar Company Vinegar tank car No. RVCX 20 -
* TTX Company TOFC-service flat car No. TTWX 970837
* Western Refrigerator Line Company refrigerator car WRX 9000 - operated by the Green Bay Route

Anyone have any input on the condition of most of this equipment? Is the wiki list even close to accurate? Some interesting things indicated. Now I have word that there is discussion on the Yahoo GBW discussion board about the scrapping of a GBW wood reefer...perhaps the noted WRX 9000?

Anyone have any photos? I'd like to see CYX 134 and ICG 910302 and a few others. Especially if they are on the supposed "list".

I think this car could very easily find a home somewhere in Northern Ohio. Very little remains of AC&Y equipment, period.

Isn't the AC&Y car a "Mather Patent" car? Not your ordinary boxcar....

Howard P.
Freight Car Partisan
Slack Action, CT

A number of years ago, I talked to someone (the curator?) at NRM and he offered our museum a CB&Q company tank car that had been in MofW service. I don't see that car on the list. Was it scrapped? Or did it end up elsewhere?

Les

While slightly off topic, if you go to maps.live.com, punch in the address of the NRM, 2285 S. Broadway St, Green Bay, WI and zoom in, you'll get an interesting view of the place. Also, click the "birds eye" view, and this view has rotation buttons, that really are neat for this. You can make out GP's, F's, different cars, and what not.

Howard,

I believe you're right about that, but I'd have to ask my friend who is an expert on AC&Y cars, and I think he's stuck on the Auto Train behind the wreck in Richmond yesterday. I'm pretty sure you're right, though.