At the LA County Fairgrounds, Pomona, California, photo says 1956. It did spend some time out of the fairgrounds and was even steamed once, but not operated any distance. It was moved back to the fairgrounds around the time of the Freedom Train visit, over temporary track laid for that event. Who can tell us the whole story?

http://www.divisionpoint.com/photos/SP_ ... _5021c.jpg

The 5021 was donated in March of 1956 having been retired in 1955 . Its last use was running helper service out of Colton over Beaumont Hill. The 5021 came to the collection due to the letter writing efforts of F. Norman Clark. He was a teenager when he joined the SC Chapter of the R&LHS in 1954 as a founding member and the drive behind the club's formation. His was responsible for the majority of the collection including some pieces that went to Travel Town due to the inability of the club to pay for transportation. Long story short, the club removed Norman from the board of directors and took his stationary away. As many know, Norman went on to start the Roaring Camp & Big Trees in Felton, CA and it is still one of the most successful tourist operations in the US.

The collection of the SC Chapter originally was located near the race track of the LA County Fairgrounds and they had a little over 1000' of rail, with a live rail connection still in place on the old Pacific Electric.

It was during the fair in September of 1961 that the 5021 was fired up and run back and forth on this short piece of track for the delight of many who saw it run. My old friend, mentor and zenmaster of steam, Bill Garner wound up firing the locomotive during that time, and being a Santa Fe man, surely had a difficult time getting used to "pulling towards" instead of "pushing away" (some of you will know what I am talking about).

On the last day of the fair, the 5021 backed down to pick up the UP 9000 which had been shoved out of the way for more running room, and together both locomotives eased their way back into the display area. It turns out this was the last time the 5021 ever had a fire in her.

The club aspired to operate the locomotive in fan service over Cajon Pass and Beaumont Hill. Bill Garner, who worked for the Santa Fe was instrumental in negotiating a place to store the engine so it could be worked on and hopefully operated. The engine was moved to San Bernardino and stored on the Santa Fe's oil spur near Mt. Vernon and 4th Streets. As an aside, when the locomotive arrived, it was placed in the roundhouse. That night the roundhouse foreman along with Bill and others connected the 5021 to house steam, lit a fusee and placed it in the firebox and marked it up to go out. It really threw off the crews showing up for work as steam had not run on the Santa Fe in many years. While the locomotive was there, it was worked on and passed a Federal hydro test and was given permission to operate, however none of the railroads would allow it to run. It was stored serviceable for the next 5 years. Bill Garner would check on it weekly, keeping it oiled, and even dusting the cab wood and polishing the brass.

After the Freedom train made its visit in December '75 / January '76, it was decided to bring the 5021 back to Pomona while the snap track was still in place. Bill Garner helped prepare the locomotive for movement. My father and I watched as it left San Bernardino and whooshed down the line, its cylinder cocks open and sounding like she was warming up for the days run.

The 5021, along with most of the collection at the Pomona Fairplex is a fine example of big steam and industrial railroading in California. With the fair needing to grow and expand the race track, the 5021 and the rest of the collection was moved to the other side of the fairgrounds where they can be viewed every 2nd weekend and all during the LA County fair which by the way is in full swing right now, but ends this weekend.
http://www.trainweb.org/rlhs/collection/collection1.html

As for Bill Garner, he had a real passion for the 3751 and was instrumental in getting that locomotive saved from Viaduct Park and assisted in its return to steam. The 6 chime whistle that is currently on her is one that he saved from a 2900 class and he gave it to the SBRHS. He led early restoration efforts while it was still in the park there and kept it oiled weekly. He was also the head of the steam department at Orange Empire and did the first restoration of Ventura County #2 on which I learned to fire. Bill was one of those old heads who really liked steam. His vacations were all about finding and riding steam tourist lines. I would spend many a Sunday afternoon over at his place watching his 8mm films on steam locomotives, including some he shot of the 5021 operating at the fairgrounds in 1961.
Some of Bill's railroad collectibles are now on display at the newly opened depot museum in San Bernardino.

Bill has passed, but the memories of him have not, nor what I learned from him 35 years ago. Thanks Bill!
TAFN
Jeff Badger
PCRR

Jeff, thanks very much for that history. When I lived in SoCal I visited the display at Pomona a few times. 5021 is an impressive locomotive.

Jeff, thanks for the write up on the 5021 and Bill Garner. I had the pleasure of working with Bill on the Mojave Northern #2 and other projects at the Cal Southern RR Museum in the early '70's. He was the nicest and most interesting person I've ever met. His house was a real treasure. From the Model A stuffed with railroad paperwork to his unique stepping stones in his backyard, it was a museum in itself. He could also outwork us teenagers but it was a lot of fun being around him and listening to his stories. I sure wish somebody would have written a biography about him. He was an incredible man yet too modest to acknowledge it.

Charlie

Does any of the original movie footage from the steam up in 1961 still exist of available for public viewing anywhere online?

Rob Gardner

Wonderful write up regarding 5021. I've seen and climbed up into the locomotive. I'm not surprised she was restricted and not allowed out on the modern rails. There are, aside from this locomotive and Bigboy 4014, a few locomotive that could "show the flag" from that collection, the AT&SF Hudson for one. These people have done an admirable job of maintaining their collection.

At one time, there was some conversation about this particular locomotive coming to the Grand Canyon Ry. for use on their trains.
ATSF had regularly used ten-coupled steam on the branch with the same sized (63") drivers.
Would have been interesting.

Tom, my, that would have been something to behold. I don't think they would have been able to put together a train that would have taxed the 5021 on that line. And the 5021 would have been very comfortable on that line though at 45 mph, the dynamic augment might have been a little severe.

Back in the 70's, I'm guessing there may have been enough guys on the SP that remembered the operational characteristics of these 3-cylinder behemoths to know they were very rough on track and not very smooth riding in the cab. A lot like the B&LE 2-10-4's and other large power that lacked the refinements that never overcame the dynamic augment from the 3-cylinder running gear.

Rob Gardner

I, too, would like to know if any of Bill Garner's movies survived. I looked on Google, YouTube, and Bing, but found nothing. It may be possible that these priceless films survive somewhere, but have not been digitized, or even talked about. You cannot find anything about a particular thing on the web if no one has put anything about it there.

About 3-cylinder steam locomotives: I heard from reliable sources that 3-cylinder steam locomotives are nightmares to maintain, with that third cylinder between the frame members, and that it was extremely difficult to keep everything balanced. Nonetheless, I am very glad the SP 5021 was saved, a d lives on at Pomona.

Margaret,

I have read the same opinions while reading about the D&RGW 3-cylinder 1500 series 4-8-2's which were based on the SP 4-10-2s and UP 4-12-2s. Rough riding, hard on the track and tough to maintain.

Rob Gardner

Ruling Grade on GCR 3%

GCR 18 42000 TE 6 cars
GCR 4960 58000 TE 9 Cars Good day mainly held to eight before lempour (SP) exhaust.

Approximately 7000 lbs of TE per car.

5021 86589 TE

86589/7000= 12.3698....

So GCR would still need a helper at 13 or more cars and 15 car trains have gone to the canyon,

Robby Peartree

P.S. For the record T&P 610 and Santa Fe 4-8-4 still need help.

P.P.S. 5021 Factor of adhesion is 3.65. Not good for working GCR.

As far as maintenance on that middle cylinder I'd assume that part of the difficultly might be based in our engineering culture... The British, French, Germans and many others did use locomotives with multiple cylinders to varying degrees of success. The way I've always measured it is how we look at how we fix things. Over on this side of the pond it seems we want something that works great for long periods of time with minimal to no maintenance. Over there... It looks like no one seems to have an issue with the headaches because in peak condition they got stellar work out of their multi-cylinder engines. But with that being said, where do some of these stories of 3 cylinder machines over here being rough on the track come from? It isn't the first time I've heard the assertion, but I'm scratching my head regardless.

Robby -

Interesting stats. A few years ago, the wife and I along with my brother-in-law and his wife, rode the GC to the South Rim Station and the power that day was 2-8-0 #29. The GC guy told me that one more car and they would have had to add one of the FPA's. So 29 did the honors by herself and she was really "down on her knees" on that one mean grade! My brother-in-law and I rode in one of the open window coaches and greatly enjoyed the Consolidation's performance. One of my more memorable steam experiences!

Les

Relatively little dynamic augment from a proper three-cylinder drive (google 'Swiss drive' for an explanation of the connecting-rod dynamics). What is needed is the '30s combination of lighter running gear (to reduce mass), better counterweight provision in the main, distribution of any remaining overbalance in the coupled wheels, and more careful dynamic/cross-balancing -- all of which could be applied fairly easily to 5021 at relatively low incremental cost over that for an operating restoration.

The discussions about why Alco et al. went to three-cylinder power in the '20s ought to be remembered in this context.

Robby, interesting stats. At least in that hypothetical, they wouldn't need a helper all that often. With the mention of T&P 610, the Wiki site (FWIW) says she has 92,590 lbs of TE with the booster (worth 13,000 lbs alone). That translates into 13 cars, so still not enough.

Did the ATSF handle trains of this size (15 cars) to the South Rim? I'm sure they probably just double headed the extra large trains back in the day?

Rob Gardner