“Unless these national treasures are run by the government, this sort of thing will continue happening. The Cog and the EBT are long overdue for gov't preservation/operation. The need to make a profit will continue to sink many privately held historic institutions both rail and non-rail.”

While I'm not sure what qualifies as a "national treasure", I suspect that the definition will always be subject to interpretation and value judgments. Yellowstone; the Constitution that is largely ignored, Gettyburg and the the Statue of Liberty I'm sure fit in most people's definition, but some other meritorious stuff might not be so easy to get a resounding "yes". Even the State of Liberty required the then star power of Lee Iacocca to get $$$ for its restoration some years back, if I recall correctly.

In any case, I'm willing to wager "our" definition of national treasure is slightly different than that of the public at large, so IF and I say IF an interest group wishes to make the case that public ownership/subsidization/operation is desirable-we first have to convince the powers-that-be that EBT/Mt Wash Cog are national treasures, but more so in their interests to takeover/preserve/ run them. You are advised to proceed with the realization that the convincing metric to a politician on any issue is that votes or contributions that will be forthcoming from presenting a giant novelty check/thrusting a gold shovel into the dirt in front of the camera.

That having been said; EBT is a place I think is a "national treasure"; but so are the Lehigh Valley’s Weatherly Shops, various surviving stations, etc. I'll comment on EBT since it’s within the borders of PA, where I've lived for but a few months and for whom I work and it’s a known quantity that surely has appeal because of its originality, completeness, guage and remaining operational steamer.

It’s been 53 years since the EBT quit running as a common carrier, if its value wasn't apparent then; it certainly should have become an obvious heritage asset since it emerged as a pioneer tourist line in 1960 and continued to draw pilgrims every year since then.

In that five decades; Governors Leader, Lawrence, Scranton, Shafer, Shapp, Thornburgh, Casey, Ridge, Schweiker and Rendell haven't seen what we see; in the even more numerous General Assemblies that have come and gone, none has seen fit to "rescue" the EBT, because votes are mined in Philly and Pittsburgh, not Orbisonia. Perhaps if EBT was in Blair County; Rick Geist would’ve championed its cause, but it’s not.

In those same decades, the PA government continued to collect an 18% "emergency tax" on liquor (enacted in response to the '36 Johnstown Flood), raised the personal income tax to its present 3.07%; collected between $2.50 & whatever it is now on every traffic citation for the "judicial computer project", and created and expanded the lottery (to ensure the pliability of the elder vote through economic feudalism). Its not like they lack imagination in finding ways to spend money. They even used their vast reservoir of business acumen to send money to enterprises like the Franconia Brewery. Never heard of it? Well, it lasted less than a year, but got more money than EBT.

In the works after decades of sending State Police and Liquor Control agents to end the ruinous vice of gambling in VFW's and "Legions" and other private clubs, the promise of a piece of the take now tempts our leaders to consider an about face and allow table games at the Casinos (that still haven't delivered the property tax relief that was promised when the legislation was rammed through in the middle of the night several years ago). Looking to their next money-grab - when they get their mitts on tax "revenue" from Marcellus Shale extractions-bet that won't be used for EBT either.

I promise you-as a former Office of the Budget employee there isn't a single decision made in PA government that isn't made on the basis of money or votes. How many State Police Cadets will be brought on board this year? Well that depends a lot on the expected "ticket revenue" that will be raised when they are dispatched to the roadways after training.

Votes is why the Phillies, Eagles, and Penguins got grand new playpens for their megabuck owners; (hey remember that Circenses thing?). Lesser coliseums were built in Scranton (Lackawanna County had to buy a team when the Red Barons went to the Lehigh Valley to become the Iron Pigs when the state started mining minor league votes in Allentown), Lancaster and York.


So several questions beckon:

Why do you believe "the need for profit" is a bad thing-that it leads to ruin rather than the innovation that we see in Strasburg? It seems to me that “the need for profit” was the road to Paradise, not perdition.

Why do you believe government "running" (btw EBT is still private property) EBT will save it from a need to have a bottom line; didn’t the RRMPA just dispatch one of its GG-1’s to the NRHS, do you think that wasn’t at least in part a financial decision?

If you believe that government operation is merited, what will FINALLY convince the state to CONSIDER it after decades of disregard?

Finally, If it’s considered; how will this happen given the Commonwealth’s fiscal mess (budget approaching 30 billion and three months overdue and counting)

Otherwise, I'm hoping for enlightened PRIVATE operation.

Big, broad questions worthy of lengthy debate but for the moment:



Which one? As far as I know, 4800 and 4935 were Pa. Historical & Museum Commission property, having been donated by the parties that got them; 4859 was supposedly still Harrisburg NRHS property, but I heard it had been turned over to the PHMC a while back......

Also, I just returned from a day-long outing with a civil engineer and a structural engineer where we traversed the entire EBT from Mt. Union to Alvan, even taking in the tunnels. Their verdict: The time to save that railroad for rebuilding was twenty years ago. The "Study of Alternatives" the NPS did was issued nearly 20 years ago. By now, there is too much deterioration to the railroad bed, the bridges, the tunnels, and the goodwill of the neighbors. You might be able to save Mt. Union to Orbisonia, but forget going south/west from there. Even if the family GAVE the railroad to the state or Feds, there's not enough left to go back into the mountains.

As always with this cynicism, I would LOVE to eat crow.

4859

And your questions of feasibility add an additional layer of complication to the question of public ownership/operation, any expansion of the line beyond its present length would hardly be guaranteed. Can you see the lawsuits, wetlands and environmental surveys??

For profit means they exist to make a profit. Making as much money is possible is the primary goal over preservation, interpretation and whatever else. Having worked in the private sector I know most of them would a soon burn the building to the ground with the employees in it if it meant big profits for the next few fiscal years. We are lucky at the EBT, Strasburg and some others that, despite being for profit, are faithful to the ideals of their railroads even if it means a little less income. Mount Washington Cog and Grand Canyon are showing us just the beginning of what can be rationalized by "profit".

At the same time I would never stand here and say that government ownership, at either the state or federal level, is a great solution either. The NPS has a boat load of problems of their own and look at the mess at the Georgetown Loop.

Personally I prefer the non-profit option. Non-profit does not mean that it cannot make money, it just cannot make money for the owners which means any profit must be reinvested or set aside for later need. Also, unlike government ownership, it is not subject to whims of our elected officials who are most interested in buying our votes with our own money. Not that this path is without its own perils, but it is simply the least of three evils.

You will hopefully forgive us as we endeavour to prove you wrong and continue to do the impossible.

"You will hopefully forgive us as we endeavour to prove you wrong and continue to do the impossible."

nice statement!

"For profit means they exist to make a profit. Making as much money is possible is the primary goal over preservation, interpretation and whatever else. Having worked in the private sector I know most of them would a soon burn the building to the ground with the employees in it if it meant big profits for the next few fiscal years."

Every business exists to make a profit; whether it is tax exempt or not and whether it realizes it or not. Some just make periodic returns to individual owners.

Government ownership of the EBT would be the worst thing that could happen to the railroad. The charm and attraction of the EBT would soon be lost as stuff like paved access roads, standardized NPS signage and more obtrusive barricades erected to spoil what is still a quite personalized and unique operation. Gotta have wide paved walkways everywhere for ADA access to the buildings for tours and that sorta thing.

The EBT has a wonderful asset in the FEBT. I look at that group and the volunteers at the C&TS as the models to follow when looking to form a friends organization. The only thing that worries me is this Salone fellow. He seemed to just appear out of nowhere and some of his events smacks more of showmanship than preservation.

Comparing CATS to the EBT bolsters the argument for government involbement.

You will not hear one iota of complaint from this voice about either Friends group on these lines. They have achieved a lot, underscore A LOT.

Both railroads suffered a major decline in infrastructure in recent years with most of the active steam sidelined and track work needed.

CATS bounced back pretty quickly when the states released funding and by all accounts (I've not been there since) is in much better shape now than 5 years ago.

The EBT however has no such funding source. It has atrophied over the years. The report above makes total sense... Of course it is a bigger task to stabilize it now than it was 20 years ago.

So look at each property circa 2004 and look at them now. Aside from the great Friends work, which has made the most strides? The gov't and CATS or the private sector and the EBT?

Rob

PS: and remember gov't doesn't always mean Federal. Look at the county operation in Flint, MI - the Huck. Not suggesting EBT could get county support, just pointing out gummint doesn't automatically mean NPS.

The problem is that these things we strive so hard to save, preserve, restore, and operate are expensive, giant money pits and money is hard to find. The general public has many feelings about what we do, many not as passionate as our own; this stuff is nothing more than outdated machinery, it's nice but don't spend my tax dollars on it, and not in my backyard are often what organizations must deal with.

In addition to trying to find the resources to accomplish our collective missions we must promote what we do in a positive way and show the general public that there is a real value in our mission.

There are always more projects than money, there is always someone doing the impossible, there are always naysayers, projects fail, and projects flourish. There is no set recipe, we all need to learn from each other and adapt what works and continually think of new ways to progress our work.

Government funding and operation can be a viable option but often is not. Pennsylvania might be one of the most difficult states in that respect. As mentioned earlier, every decision is indeed tied to a host of other unrelated issues. Keep in mind that into the 1980's you could drive I-95 from Florida to Maine on I-95 and Philadelphia was the last place where you had to exit the highway, drive on city streets, sit through red lights, and then enter the highway at another spot. Philadelphia was also the last major city to get cable TV. The reasons for these things are simple, it's not about service to the public, it's about who gets what in the process.

So with that being, note that the EBT is located in a state with unmatched railroad history and a large number of passionate supporters but is also near the bottom (48th or 49th) out of 50 states in which gaining state support and actually getting something done is likely. Also keep in mind that with the state involved you are looking at spending $350,000 dollars to do a cosmetic restoration on one steam locomotive. The non-profit operating the EBT could probably do a heck of a lot more with $350,000 than one cosmetic restoration of one locomotive. County support is another option mentioned and MOT comes to mind as an organization that has made strides under county support. Nevertheless I would be very wary about signing over the deed and tossing the keys to any government, especially in Pennsylvania.

There is no easy answer. Wait, how about we buy one of those "easy buttons" from Staples and stick it on the side of the roundhouse...

EBT is one of the most problematic situations I've ever worked with. Many years ago we got involved in a master plan. Out of that grew the PA TEA-21 grant that never happened; predicated on transfer of the Orbisonia shop property to a nonprofit foundation as the match. Problem was that the grant had to be split over multiple funding years, but PA wanted "all" the match up-front in year 1 and then more later. No deal, and it fell apart, and the story very much had two sides although people on both sides don't see it that way. In a nutshell that's what's happened a decade ago until this last year.

Don't confuse public/private ownership with the constant need to be cash-flow positive. The rarest endangered species out there is operating funds 'subsidy'. Those publicly-owned sites that effectively do get it often get it at the expense of a bizarre separation of all revenues going into government general fund and then begging for an operating expense 'park' budget that bears no relationship to sound businesslike practices and is divorced from revenue. My favorite, and I've seen a lot of it, is a fixed purchasing budget for the gift shop; and when you've spent it for the year you can't re-order - the place goes empty. Oh well. So instead of the retail being a real support, it either has to be run empty or subcontracted for a royalty fee - either is a 'pretty poor way to run a railroad'. In the case of GTL, that gift shop operation was profitable enought that THAT operator decided to take on the entire railroad contract - testimony to where the money is most operations.

That public ownership at the operational level just completely warps sound business practice decisionmaking. Oh, it exists, but if you actually ever see a set of financial statements (if you can get one or make one by hand-combining revenue and expense budgets) the 'bottom line' operation is sometimes apalling. And like it or not, it still leaves the property very much at risk over time. It's not as much of a solution as people would think with a group of taxpayers (state, local or federal) footing the bill. You may be able to get the occasional capital grant, but operational funding from the public side is no guarantee of preservation. It still needs cash flow.

EBT has always been privately owned, and with an owner that is a very successful businessman. He has been successful enough to underwrite the operating losses of the EBT, and has also put an unbelievable amount of donation money into local educational instututions - one of which my son is now attending for college, and the name is EVERYWHERE. So 'public' funding of the railroad has always been legitimately questioned in that scenario. Most properties such as the EBT were long-ago transferred at least to a nonprofit entity that is eligible for grant applications for capital projects, but they still have to run enough like a business to keep their own lights on. And of course, the customers (remember them?) could really care less, this isn't a charity, it's a choice of their recreational and educational time.

The big news the last decade has been the wonderful progress the Friends have made over there. 10 years ago it was a very hostile relationship, that's been mended to the point that the place was literally buzzing with activity and many much-needed projects and repairs being attacked. That's been a grass-roots, hands-on solution that hasn't required a bureaucracy to enforce, and I just want to make sure it is properly recognized to everyone. I'm hoping that the situation is sorting itself out, I'm optimistic when I see the real results the Friends have achieved. I haven't had enough information to really comment on current Foundation arrangement, but I also don't want to let this proven progress go unrecognized.

I am speaking as an individual and nothing I have to say is official.

I think that the National Park Service took a look at the EBT And made the decision not to get involved. For better or worse they decided to do the Steamtown project in Scranton.

I to favor non-profit over government operation. The government comes with so much bag and baggage that it just can't do the job that a well run profit can.

Having said that the case can be made for such projects as the Cumbres & Toltec and the Museum of Transport in St Louis which are joint operations.

Another good example is the California State Railroad Museum and the the Friends Foundation that partners with the State Parks.

Another is the RR Museum of Pennsylvania which has an active Friends group.

It is too soon to tell with the newest arrangements on the EBT. I do wish them the best; the site is a national treasure, as mentioned above. Time will tell!

Ted Miles

The "Study of Alternatives" for the East Broad Top Railroad (where it was basically assumed to be headed to an NPS property) was published in 1990. I've got my copy where I could check the dates.

Steamtown was created by Congress in 1986 and was open in 1995, from what I can find. I'm reading into that that Steamtown came first but EBT was a 'me too' consideration.

That was the assumption for quite a while, including the on-site park rangers that I well remember.

Since the people who own the East Broad Top are good business people it is always good to do tweaking to a business plan when they see where, what, when, why and how something is or is not working. I'm glad that the organization between the friends organization has dramtically improved.

Randy, if I remember correctly, the idea of the EBT joining the NPS lacked a strong supporter in Congress. Steamtown had that support in Joe McDade (OK, no "pork barrel" tangents in this thread, please). And of course, there was the other issue of the private entities involved agreeing to the deal. I also remember a popular strawman argument that pitted Steamtown against the EBT, which was baseless given the timing of the legislation for Steamtown.

While I heartily support government preservation as a viable option along with non-profits and some cases of private preservation, I draw the line at eminent domain. So if the Cog or EBT ever do come under gov't control, I would hope it would be an equitable deal.

There are many issues impacting steam operations in Pennsylvania, and the trend has been downward for a number of years. Alan Maples may change that soon :-) but the number of operating steam locomotives in PA is dropping. A quick count shows about 12 expected to run next year compared to 19 in 1999. I think there are only two operable steam locomotives west of the Susquehanna River and the number of lines with more than one serviceable steam locomotive has dropped to 2 (Strasburg and Pioneer Coal Mine). In relatively recent history, Steamtown, Kempton and EBT all featured multiple locos ready to steam. The good news is that Steamtown and Kempton are making strides towards returning to that status. Possibly the Everett and EBT will follow?

Rob