Certainly, I am putting the cart before the horse, but I think it wold be tremendous to see B&M 3713 with smoke deflectors and stream line (on top of boiler) casing restored. Photos of which are available here:

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/onli ... /shs2c.htm

I know a number of other railroads did this. Have any other engines survived with this casing intact besides the 4449 and 4460? Was there a tangible benefit from this treatment and did it work better with smoke deflectors?

Thanks!

Joshua

N&W 611 is one such engine. Lifters lifted the smoke higher more for the passenger trains. Not sure how many streamlined engines were saved before the diesel routing, many prolly scrapped before the steam-donation preservation was stronger if any lingered on properties before the torch finally hit.

I believe one NKP 4-6-4 with lifters it at St Louis. There probably would have been more NKP 4-6-4's saved as a few were purchased for a proposed railroad, but the owner passed away mid-way and the benefactors scrapped the engines.

C&O 4-6-4 #490 at the B&O Museum. The 0-6-0 Fireless Heisler in the RRMofPA.

Kevin

A minor point, but that spiffy blue Heisler fireless at RR Museum of PA is the one and only 0-8-0 fireless ever built in North America.

Many of the later Porter fireless locos had a "skyline casing" atop the storage tank, plus other trim that gave them a "sorta almost kinda" streamlined look.

Wind resistance was probably not a factor in such designs. ;-)

The late David P. Morgan once quoted a passenger sales agent who commented that "streamlining was more about reducing passenger resistance than wind resistance;" in other words, it was mostly about style.

One road where this went beyond style was the Canadian National, which is still represented by at least one existing streamlined 4-8-4. Here, the object of the streamlining was to lift the smoke above the cab, particularly with low exhaust pressure in situations such as high-speed drifting.

Canadian Pacific also went in for "streamstyling," as can be seen on its existing Royal Hudsons, Jubilees (4-4-4s), and Selkirks (2-10-4s).

Santa Fe's later 4-6-4s and 4-8-4s were supposed to be streamlined, but the streamlining on one of the 4-6-4s was found to be excessively heavy and had other complications, so the other engines never got it (I understand some components that would have been included in the streamlined package went in anyway, such as a stainless steel handbrake and handrails on at least one 4-8-4).

Ross Rowland's C&O J3a No. 614 was also supposed to be streamlined, but again, weight limitations caused it to be cancelled. Considering how this turned out on the 490, I'm glad!

David,

It's my understanding that the streamlining on the 0-8-0 in the RRM of PA was done specifically because of it being put on display during the 1939 New York World's Fair, when streamlining was the rage for everything, from trains to trashcans.

Regards,
John

Also, British locomotives put most all piping, valves, etc. either under the jacket or out of sight which gives them a more sleek and uncluttered design.

Someone must have decided that the extra hassle at maintenance time was worth it.

That smoothed out but still conventional British look was adopted by a number of roads on a limited series of engines. These included some 4-6-2s on the Reading, a single P-9 (P-7 with Emmerson firebox and Caprotti poppet valves) on the B&O, the same road's Lord Baltimore and Lady Baltimore (experimental one-off 4-6-4 and 4-4-4), the George Emmerson (experimental 4-4-4-4, the first duplex drive engine of any type), Delaware & Hudson 4-6-2s, some of its experimental heavy 2-8-0s, and its later 4-8-4s and 4-6-6-4s, and a rebuilt 4-6-2 that was painted red on the Chicago Great Western. There may have been others; none exist that I know of.

The British themselves got somewhat away from the sleek look late in the steam era, particularly after nationalization in 1948. Labor costs were rising, revenue was eaten away by inflation, there was highway competition--familiar story. Photos of the BR "standard" engines built from about 1950 on have more exposed piping, and no inside cylinders with but one or two exceptions (and one of those would be a one-off experimental with three cylinders and rotary cam poppet valves).

Still, an overall sleeker look than what was common in America remained. Part of this was because the British didn't use some of the hardware we did, such as air brakes for the most part (vacuum was much more common), no headlights or bells or pilots, very few feedwater heaters, and sandboxes mounted in or around running boards (hence no sand dome, and no associated sanding piping). About all that would be left would be the injectors and their associated piping, and that took on what I would call an "American" appearance.

How about the Chinese 2-8-2 on the Boone and Scenic Valley and all three of the QJ 2-10-2's that migrated to the U.S.? I believe 6988 may be losing hers to represent a more American look.
Don C.

Please, no streamline casing on B&M 3713. I would like to see the 3713 restored back to appearance when she last performed service for the B&M. The last run of steam excursion on the B&M was probably the 3713's most notable point in her career, and I think it's appropriate to leave her as she appeared at that point in time, especially since that is basically how she existed prior to being torn down. There were a number of things which made the P-4as and 3713 particular in unique. For one thing, she (3713) appeared to wear a only partially completed "Speed Lettering" paint scheme (no red striping on the tender, and white, non italicized font on the cab, not red and gold like the other engines with speed lettering). Second, a maze of piping in the vicinity of the engineer's side smokebox which was originally concealed by the smoke deflectors was made visible after the reconfiguration. This piping had to do with the coffin feedwater heater, and was actually later removed at the museum of science in Boston and is now gone. As it was needed for the feedwater to operate, it will have to be put back in place in some form or another.

The parts for the streamline casing are gone, so it would not really be that "historical" at all. It would be impractical to attempt to modify her back to the original configuration anyways, since when the casing was removed a second air pump was added to make the engines similar to the P-4b class. Removing the pump would not make sense, as it was added for a reason, to give the engine addition reliability in the event of a compressor failure on the road. I don't think history is well served by taking a locomotive's history and "back dating" it to some other previously desired point in history.

I believe, but am not 100% certain, that the 3713 will/should come out in it's "late" appearance vs. the earlier incarnation with the streamlining. As mentioned above, the engine's configuration, now, represents her later years on the B&M.

It is odd that when the 3713 was cosmetically refurbished by the B&M for the science museum that the early scheme was chosen. It was probably only a few short years (months?) that she would have worn that scheme whilst retaining the streamlined casing.

Also if I recall correctly a lot of the piping on the smoke box was added as a snow melting mechanism for Boston's South Station in the 1950's.

While we're on the subject, we (the NRHS) have a working website for the 3713 at
project3713.com It's a work in progress as I receive photos and information.

Dave Crosby

I believe that a lot of the Vulcan built 2-10-0's sent to Turkey that are still around have the "skyline" casing on top.

Are any of these Vulcan's still in existance? And were these the engines that had one of the group tested on the MA & PA before being sent overseas?

Les

Can't say for sure about them running on the Ma & Pa, but I believe there are 5 still extant in Turkey.

The test track for the Turkish 2-10-0s wasn't the Ma & Pa, but the Lehigh Valley main line! This makes sense, as the Vulcan works was on the LV.

There was a photo of one of the test runs in an issue of Railroad magazine at the time.

Maybe drifting off the thread a bit, but still on the subject of export 2-10-0s, does anybody know if any of the Lima 2-10-0s built in the postwar era for Poland are still around? These engines were notable for being what appears to be a custom design, for being fairly large (I think they may have been stoker-fired, unusual in European practice), and for being the only 2-10-0s ever built by Lima.