Hi, all:

Has anybody here used Imron recently, in Canada?

In preparation for restoration of our CN snowplow #55400, I've been checking wwith paint dealers and I hear that Imron has been banned nationwide.

I asked about the ultra-low VOC rating on the new Imron that DuPont is advertising, but none of the dealers I could find knew anything about it.

I'm awaiting a response from DuPont, but I was hoping to learn something here first.

I have not tried Awlgrip, so I don't know it it is banned as well... that may be next in my search if Imron is truly dead and gone.

I really don't want to continue the ridiculous 2 to 5 year repaint cycle with this car!

Thanks, All.

Steve Hunter
RMEO
Smiths Falls, Ontario

Imron is good but nasty stuff. I have for years used PPG products, originally Delta now Delfleet. The product is used by John Deere, Gulfstream(who formarly used imron) and many other companies for factory original finishes. What makes a finish hold up is the level of solids in the mix, Delfleet and imron are near to identical in this regard.
The pricing is much less than imron but the durability is comparable. Also, one sees a good deal more coverage per gallon...yet more savings.

http://www.ppg.com/coatings/commercialc ... fault.aspx

You want to start with the two part epoxy primer on a blasted finish, two coats
https://buyat.ppg.com/refinishProductCa ... b9354ea87a

Next, high solids primer (this is optional depending upon the desired finish quality, using this product followed by sanding will result in a showroom finish)
https://buyat.ppg.com/refinishProductCa ... 7bd68ee742

For the color
https://buyat.ppg.com/refinishProductCa ... cc8a23fa3c

And lastly the clear coat, all lasting finishes use a clearcoat. The "J" had clear reapplied every season to repair damage from being on the road.
https://buyat.ppg.com/refinishProductCa ... 508597983e

CANADA
514-645-1320


Hope this helps! Jason

Hi, Jason:

Thanks for the info on Delfleet. I'll contact them tomorrow- hopefully our government hasn't banned it too, LOL. Their web site certainly looks as though it's readily available here.

My interest in Imron comes from a caboose displayed in Brockville, Ontario, that was painted 25 years ago and still looks quite presentable although it has finally begun to fade. I'm very familiar with the danger of isocyanates from previous employment, where we went to great lengths to protect production workers working with urethane sealants... very nasty indeed as you'd expect from anything containing cyanide.

Our intent is to have the car professionally grit blasted and painted, accomplishing the work in a couple of weeks instead of a year of volunteer work, and protecting our volunteers from all the nasty stuff.

Steve

Is it illegal to sandblast in an open air setting in canada as it is in the US? I am a fan of "Black Beauty" but there is legislation in the works to make all coal by-products hazardous materials including slag which BB is made from. Last two blasting projects I have used recycled glass media. Great stuff!


Jason

We're not as tightly regulated here, but the basic idea is the same- you must be absolutely sure you protect the public and all workers from silica, old paint dust, etc., whether airborne or collecting on the ground.

In Ontario, you must rope off outdoor sandblast areas by at least 25 meters, or if that is not possible, erect a temporary enclosure, to keep all people away from silica and other dust. Of course, proper protective gear is required for anybody in the work zone.

Some of the newer abrasive media are far safer than silica sand, but you still want to prevent the media and old paint from collecting on the ground. The old temporary enclosure trick, tarps on the ground, and avoiding windy days will go a long way toward keeping the area clean. The collected material can then be properly disposed of.

All professional sandblast/ painting contractors have the proper equipment, training, and experience in quickly erecting temporary shelters, so the rules don't present undue difficulty.

As the project develops, I'll post updates, as I feel this may be helpful to groups who are new to restoration work of this nature.

Steve

Steve, we used Imron to paint ex-CP RSD 17, 8921 only about 3 years ago, but it was all donated directly from Dupont.

PPG Delfleet is an excellent product also. I painted our troop sleeper myself with it. It covers really well. I am quite happy with the results. It is less expensive than Imron also.

Thanks, Rob!

I was told the Imron ban takes effect on 18 December this year, and the stores are frantically returning material while they're still able. Of course I haven't been able to confirm this, and DuPont hasn't returned my calls yet.

It looks like we'll go with the PPG Delfleet as it seems to have many of the same qualities as Imron with greatly reduced safety and environmenttal concerns.

Steve

This company has literally 'bent over backwards' to work with us on the Texas State RR - including working to the the Imron specs for durability, fade, etc.

You can see on their web page that they're proud of the results, as well. They know they're playing to a critical group here.

Their factory reps were on-site to make sure that prep, temperature, etc. were all done according to spec to make sure the warranty was good.

They have an agenda - they want to get into freight car paints and they figured that working with tourist railroads would get them a lot more press to break into the market. Can't say as I think that was a wrong approach, and they've been so helpful I'll post the link:

http://www.tci-coatings.com/

They don't have a lot of color variations as to original railroad freight colors, etc., but as far as we've seen so far its held up quite well following the procedures and putting on the UV clearcoat.

Thanks for the lead, Randy!

Steve

Hi, Jason:

I have a question re the use of clear coat.

Do you do the lettering before or after application of the clear coat? Does the clear coat affect adhesion of lettering paints, or can a product such as One Shot lettering enamel be used over it?

Thanks,

Steve

After it is all said and done, don't forget that for a truly long lasting finish, the vehicle, car, truck, train, will need maintenance in the form of washing and an occasional waxing. Although cars have come with base/clearcoat for years, they still need a little TLC to keep them looking right.

Later!
Mr. Ed

The local museum has been using DuPont Centari for the last few projects, after the bodywork and priming is done they spray the lettering and striping color(s) in the appropriate places and stick on vinyl lettering masks and then paint the main color, they then remove the masks and clearcoat the car.

I took the training class to paint automobiles in California, and I do a lot of painting for a couple of museums. I use 2-pack epoxy primers exclusively and most of my topcoating is with 2-pack polyurethanes. 98% of that, I brush/roll.


Good idea! You'd be amazed how few painters think that way.

Here is a book I like, as its first pages describe paint technologies available today and many of the issues at hand. "How to paint your boat" by Nigel Clegg.
Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/157409 ... 1574092235
Preview on Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=vCs_7C ... &q&f=false

I assume this is not the last piece of equipment you'll ever paint. Pick a paint system likely to work for you long-term. What's your fleet made of? Some paint systems are intended ONLY for steel or aluminum. Can they deal with wood?

If Imron is disappearing, avoid it. Think ahead and invest in a formulation unlikely to "go away" soon. You don't want a paint cabinet crowded with color-matched cans of "Part A" and part B is no longer made, and you're going out to try to get a paint match in another system, while lamenting the rather expensive toxic waste now in your cabinet.

Beware lowered-VOC paints, especially those hastily lowered to meet government regs, and most especially, those for spray. Spray requires low viscosity and how do you achieve that without VOCs? Waterborne perhaps, but water is incompatible with traditional Imron's winning chemistry.

VOC laws regualate each market differently: Automotive, "commercial", "industrial", aviation, marine. So you get radically different formulations for each market. Automotive is hit the hardest, since it's the #1 consumer of paint, and body shops are "in everyone's backyard". Railroads, like marine, tend to be regulated lightly, partly because so little railroad painting is done.

For this reason, avoid automotive paint at all costs. Auto paint is designed on the presumption that it will be 1) sprayed; 2) in very controlled temperature and humidity; 3) in a paint booth; 4) atop careful and very specific prep; and 5) by a guy who does it all day everyday and has learned to work around the low-VOC shortcomings. And then it will be a poor service life paint, and will fail quickly on wood.

If you're looking for the Imron magic, it's in the resin, and you want a "2-part aliphatic polyurethane". A number of vendors make that, but it's high-VOC by nature, at least for spray.

Paint has 3 basic elements: pigment for color; resin for structure; and solvent to make it thin enough to paint. Of course because it's 2-part, the resin is in two different cans, we'll call them "A" and "B", and both include solvent and "A" includes pigment, plus there's additional solvent.

Awlgrip is a fine alternative. The way they do brush/spray is genius: They put the pigment in the "A" can. They have two alternate "B" cans, optimized for either spray or brush. Awlgrip is the Imron of boating, can be sprayed or brushed, works on wood, and in my experience is well within the ability of volunteers to paint safely and get good results with.


Oh, but isocyanates are the painter's very best friend! So it really pays to understand the issues.

OK first, when a painter speaks of isocyanates, he means a di-isocyanate, a heavy molecule with at least 6 carbons attached to 2 isocyanate groups. These are a severe irritant of mucous membranes, especially lungs, and also irritate the immune system possibly leading to an allergy to isocyanates of varying severity, and severe immune system damage generally.

Aromatic isocynates are built around a benzene ring. Aliphatics are not, and is somewhat less reactive/hazardous. The dominant form in industry is aromatic, because it is cheap. However, in paints, aromatic had yellowing issues and so better paints use aliphatic type.

Isocyanates are present in uncured resin. They are not in the solvents at all.

So for these aliphatics, skin is a pretty good barrier (still, wipe it off not with solvent). Mucous membranes are a poor barrier, and lungs are a very, very poor barrier. The very stupid spray painter can expose himself enough to get an acute reaction and an ambulance ride.

However for the rest of us, we are concerned with the cumulative slow risk of immune system damage, typically seen as developing an allergy (sensitivity) to isocyanates. That risk is proportionate to exposure severity (a lungful is far worse than a drip on skin), type of isocyanate, frequency of exposure (40 hour a week job vs. one train car a year). But risk also varies wildly by person. I believe the allergic effects ramp up (slowly or quickly or instantly depending on how you're exposed) ranging from "a spot on your skin itches" to "walk into a paint shop and have an asthma-like attack" or worse immune system damage. Occupational asthma is a career-killer, which is why your company is so keen on protecting workers.

98% of my Awlgrip work is brush/roller. I use gloves in the shop but not outside where glove-sweat would drip on the work. I get it on my skin once or twice per paint day, and I stop and take it off my skin with Gojo lanolin hand cleaner (never solvent). In the rare instance I spray, I use a simple $100 3M cartridge respirator and goggles, because it's a good compromise of cost vs. risk, for my usage. If I sprayed every Saturday I'd get better gear, and if I sprayed daily you bet I'd have a moon suit.

And you can see why I am a cheerleader for brush/roller application. The isocyanate risk goes nearly to zero, unless you're Captain Splatter. No paint is wasted. Far lower VOCs are used. To apply fast, use a 2-3 man crew, 1 with a roller slamming it down, and the others behind "tipping out" to reduce stipple, spread it and hit details. Awlgrip's brush converter makes it "ooze" and flow out a lot, so it can appear sprayed. I just don't have the prep patience or shop hygiene to pull that off with perfection, but I see where it's possible. Besides, on any pre-Depression piece, the brush stipple belongs there anyway - our forefathers used brushes.

Isocyanates are not cyanide. Completely different stuff. Santa vs Satan.
Isocyanate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isocyanate
Cyanide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide


BE CAREFUL - since the topic of discussion is these advanced paints, you really need to follow the recommendations of the paint manufacturer. Wax is designed to preserve old style alkyds, lacquers and enamels, none of which we are talking about here.

And especially, since you're talking about cars, you SHOULD NOT use automotive so-called "waxes", as many of those contain silicones. That will sabotage your next paint job, as it will cause the next coat to not stick or flow right, and your prep crew won't be able to detect it to remove it.

People who paint automobiles for a living know how to deal with silicones, it's part of the precise prep. But nobody expects it on a railcar.

Oh, and clearcoats -- do not belong on historic equipment. They are a novelty product used on modern automobiles to get an unnatural "wet look", and remember, other 2-packs like Awlgrip are no slouch at the wet look. But clearcoat does not age well, and you can expect problems after 10 years (nobody expects 10 years out of an automotive finish.)

Our whole point is to get 30 years life out of the coating. That is achievable; I've gotten 20 with old alkyds stored outdoors, albeit very good alkyds on impeccable prep. Part of the reason is that coating was maintainable - you could touch up defects and alterations. It utterly defeats the purpose to use a system where touchup is a big production with spray gun and moon suit, it means you won't do it... and a job which should look good at T+15 years will look bad. You should be able to mix a few teaspoons of the original color (fresh converter) and touch it up with a chip brush. It's a basic functional test of a coating system.

Thanks so much for that post Rob. I'm going to print it out and put in my painting file.

Thanks, Robert.

It looks like we'll be going with the PPG Delfleet Evolution series paints. They seem to be a good compromise between a long lasting, durable finish, reasonable level of safety, cost, and fairly local availability.

The Awlgrip line seems good too, but it's hard to obtain in our area.

We'll likely have the car sandblasted, primed, and painted by an industrial painting contractor after which we'll paint the lettering, grab irons, and small details ourselves. Based on photos of ECRM's troop sleeper, we'll avoid the clear coat.

This snowplow is somewhat of an experiment in better paint systems. We have been using Centari for a number of years, and it is better than many paints, but it still begins fading too early.

The real solution is indoor storage, but until we pass that milestone, improved coatings are essential.

If the Delfleet works well and gives us the lasting results we're looking for, it will likely become our new "standard" paint for metal surfaces.

Once winter goes away and we restore 55400, I'll report back to the group and let you know how it goes!

Thanks, all, for your help!

Steve