Last month I took my first trip to The RRMPA to visit the great hall since 1999 and I am STILL impressed with their collection. After countless hours on this site and reading the endless debates about 'historical fabric' this and 'not feasible' that, it got me thinking.
Which engines if any (steam, electric or diesel) are in a such a condition that a minimal amount of time of restoration would make them road worthy again?
I know our beloved favorites, 1223, 7002 and 3750 will probably never run again, as well as 460 although she is currently receiving a cosmetic restoration and some of the other pieces look fresh out of the paint shop but IF money was no object and there was a place where they could run to their [mechanical] hearts content, which engine(s) would be (a) prime candidate(s)?

The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania has explicitly said that they're NOT letting any of their exhibits run again.

Period. Full stop. End of discussion.

If circumstances should somehow change--and that would require, for example, the donation of an operable locomotive PLUS an endowment to continue its maintenance and operability, or a change in protocol of the Pa. Historic & Museum Commission that would probably require legislative action--then this discussion might be worthwhile.

Aside from that.......... [cue Stephen Foster's "Beautiful Dreamer"]........

I understand that numerous discussions Alex, but I was merely asking which piece of equipment would be in a condition where restoration would be mechanically possible? Which piece or pieces is sound enough that a minimal amount of work could be performed to operational status?

I would go with the B&LE 643. Yes she is big but talking to someone who worked on her she needs little work to be up and running. The running gear is good. I think she would look great pulling up thru the Delaware Water Gap back to Scranton. Nice long hills for her to stretch her legs!

There is no such thing as "minimal restoration" any more. The federal regulations commit any steam locomotive owner to a very expensive and extensive process to bring a steam locomotive into current compliance and service.

B&LE 643?

Last I knew it was still privately owned, and the owner was not inclined to donate it to the State Museum.

So, how will the museum deal with those little issues?........

(Not to mention finding a megabuck or two for the project.)

Cue in "Beautiful Dreamer" once again.......

> Last I knew it was still privately owned, and the owner was not inclined to donate it to > the State Museum.

Here we go yet again. Surely everyone knows by now that ONLY a 501(c)3 is qualified and credible enough to be engaged in genuine preservation.

Don't they?!?

WM303, if your comment was made sarcastically, it's accepted as such. But unfortunately, being a 501(c)3 doesn't necessarily convey qualification nor credibility. I can think of a local 501(c)3 that is neither, and they've been around for 37 years. It is the staff that bring the qualifications and credibility, and if the organization can't or won't employ such personnel either as staff or volunteers then there is no true credibility and certainly no qualification.

I'm sure there are non-501(c)3's out there that are more than qualified and credible to be engaged in "genuine preservation". It's just that we tend to think of museums engaging in preservation more than non-museums.

Mr. Mitchell's position/commentary is spot on. Reading the strategic planning document of RRMofPA, I see that they are working on (if not already received) accreditation from the AAM. AAM accreditation is nice if you are an art or natural history museum, but frankly, I have never thought it a great idea for railroad museums. The American Association for State and Local History has standards that are much more realistic and offers just as much credibility as AAM. I might also add that NPS/DOI standards for historic structures are much more applicable to railroad equipment than are curatorial policies for museum objects and collections as observed by AAM. Say what you will, but the manner in which Steamtown NHS manages its collections is indeed a model for railroad museums from a policy perspective (not an endorsement of financial or resource management at NPS in general or Steamtown specifically).

RRMPA's insistence on being a natural history museum of iron horses rather than a railroad museum is disappointing to those of us who think experiencing history in some way is an especially important way to educate society on its aspects. With a painting, a sculpture, a biological speciman, a fossil, a document, a photograph, a furnishing, and similar static objects, documentation, display, and, most importantly, conservation are critical items. With structures, these items are important, but certain things like roofs, paint, moving components, structural materials, and so forth must be recognized as items that wear out and must be replaced to keep items usable, presentable, and actually preserved in existence rather that succumbing to the forces of nature.

If Mount Vernon were treated as RRMPA intends its entire collection to be treated, the home of Mr. and Mrs. Washington would disintigrate into dust and no one could ever view the inside of it or walk on its floors. Nor could climate control (necessary for extending structural and interior exhibit life) be added for fear of upsetting the original Altoona fabric. Frankly, I'm not sure how they justify cosmetic restorations under their philosophy as much as they upset the original Altoona fabric when completed.

I'm not trying to throw RRMPA under the bus - they have many great aspects, especially their archives management, but the collections policy is a bit over the top for the historic structures (albeit mobile ones) that railroad equipment pieces actually are.

Not a fan of propped up corpses,
Mike

And to reinforce what Stephen states, I've worked for 501C3s, private collectors, private for profits, and public - private partnerships in railway preservation and tourist railroading, and competence is not limited to any category; unfortunately incompetence, bureaucratic and personal indeciveness and irrationality isn't either - and is in fact more prevailent across the board.

Clarity of purpose or vision, rational planning, and the ability to decisively respond in a timely way are common denominators to the best - politics, emotionalism and competing mutually exclusive priorities to the worst, along with the buck having no stopping point.

Don't worry so much about IRS status until you have the other stuff under control.

RRMPA is privileged to have an extremely competent and successful operating steam railway across the street - they have no need to try to operate a competing interpretive experience. I'd seriously question their priorities and competence in management if they tried.

dave

Not to be pendantic here, but RRMPA is an arm of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania's museum branch, and not a 501c3.

I've noticed over the past several months you have waged a wide-ranging campaign of sarcastic comments against non-profits. My guess is that you have had a bad expierence or expierences with dealing with the railroad museum industry. I apologize for your bad experience, but ask that you not bemoan what has generally been sucessful. In a forum that deals with railway preservation, you should not be shocked to learn that people tend to prefer non-profits as their entity of choice.

Essentially, you complain that non-profits are not the only way to engage in historic preservation. You create a straw man, as nobody has said that only non-profits can do preservation.

There are some wonderful examples of private railway preservation in the U.S. However, not all of us have the resources do preserve privately, so we help where we can. We find that the non profit group is best avenue to donate our time, talent and treasure. Non-profits or foundations also provide a vehicle to get funding. Like I said, not all of us can buy our own piece of equipment and preserve it.

While many non profits are beset by politics, infighting, political intrigue, they have one aspect that trumps the individual private preservationist, as essentially corporate entities, they have the capability to long outlive us. In other posts, you have touted your preservation success (and rightly so). One example you gave was the preservation of a steam crane that is currently being restored to operation, a move you helped broker. Good for you. The problem with private preservation is that all it takes is a disinterested heir for the preservation to be undone, for a crane or locomotive to end up as scrap metal.

Sure, museums are also subject to the same lack of interest. A museum can let a donated piece of equipment rot away. The problem is that museums, or private indivduals are humans, and as such are subjecto the same vices and sins that beset us all. In an imperfect world, we can only create imperfect insitutions. For most of us, non-profits seem to be the best solution.

David M. Wilkins
Not-For-Profit, MO

[quote="Newriver400]If Mount Vernon were treated as RRMPA intends its entire collection to be treated, the home of Mr. and Mrs. Washington would disintigrate into dust and no one could ever view the inside of it or walk on its floors. Nor could climate control (necessary for extending structural and interior exhibit life) be added for fear of upsetting the original Altoona fabric. Frankly, I'm not sure how they justify cosmetic restorations under their philosophy as much as they upset the original Altoona fabric when completed.
Not a fan of propped up corpses,
Mike[/quote]

Your analogy falls flat on its face. Last time I checked, RRMPA engaged in restoration and preservation of their equipment. By your analogy, they would have never painted anything, or restored a single piece of equipment. Since most equipment lived outdoors, they would have never built a building or buildings to cover them, etc. I guess all of those nice restorations I saw last summer were just my faulty memory.

Even our British counterparts have determined that some locomotives should never be steamed again, as they are still in ex-works condition and can tell us a lot about how the equipment was originally constructed, maintained and serviced (Lode Star at NRM and City of Birmingham in the Science museum come to mind).

If you don't like dead corpses, walk across the rather narrow two lane highway, and notice all of the changes SRR has had to make to keep operational (non slip coating on the coach steps, non original car construction, etc.). Strasburg is wonderful, but not as a museum. It's great to see stuff operate. It's also great to see stuff preserved (stuffed and mounted) to see how it was.

I think the Natural History Museum approach is appropriate for this particular museum because you already have the living, breathing version across the street. Strasburg is a rare location where you have the very best in operational steam railroading with a first class maintenance crew, etc. At the same time, walk across the street and you will find a first class static display museum. I believe that both types of restoration are equally represented and that they have achieved a perfect balance.

It is important that we have operational rail history relics. However, the RRMofPA also provides a valuable service in preserving "original fabric" for future generations.

I do apologize for this thread getting out of hand the way it has, but I was simply trying to get peoples opinions on which pieces of motive power were in such a condition that IF restoration were possible, which pieces would be in a good condition. Which pieces, despite FRA regulations for complete overhaul, have the most user serviceable parts in good...in the best condition. Plain and simple. Again I am sorry for asking I was just curious.
I understand the political and historical stance of the RRMPA collection and I am uniterested in knowing anything futher regarding it.

To put it bluntly, which engines are in the best condition?

To put it equally bluntly, "nobody knows."

You normally do an analysis for restoration to operation when there is a serious proposal for operation. I think the last time that happened was with "7002" in 1980-ish; the lease with 1223 predated the Penn Central and Museum, and as the articles have said, "7002" was in such immaculate condition that it sholuld never have been fired up, but instead "preserved in amber"--there were still tool marks from the 1940's overhaul for the World's Fair. If there were ever any study done along those lines in 1974-80. the results would be long obsolete in 2011 anyway--changing boiler codes and AAR requirements/regulations, a less receptive insurance and operating environment (Amtrak, NS/CSX, etc.), even changes at Strasburg.

Even if Warren Buffett, Pete Waterman, Richard Bramson, Bill Gates, Donald Trump, or Al Gore were to step up with a billion dollars and offer to restore the collection to operation just because he can, it would possibly be easier from a logistical standpoint to buy the Reading & Northern, Ohio Central, or Iowa Interstate and then set up a shop to build new replicas to modern specs, metallurgy, and codes. (Warren Buffett doesn't even have to buy another railroad, come to think of it.)

I was given a close-up look at PRR 460 last month during PRR Days at the Museum. Let's just say that the deterioration I saw there from thirty-plus years of outdoor storage had to be seen to be (dis)believed. Anyone who suggests that said locomotive should be restored to operation should be taken out back into the (remains of the) tender and then beaten savagely with air brake hoses until some semblance of sense returns.