Reading some of the recent threads like the #614 saga, Ross bashing, and the one about England I see something worth pointing out.

We as a movement are not solid. Think about this, if enough of "US" bought tickets to ride #614 on NJT the trips would have sold out and others may have been scheduled. If enough folks would visit Steamtown and spend money there maybe #759 might get he shot in the backshop. Ross is indeed one who took some big risks and we all got to see big steam. Many "US" never bought a ticket but chased and took lots of photos/film/video.

More of "US" need to spend our money and buy tickets which is the only way things are going to happen.

Tom Gears
Wilmington, DE

Forgotten Delaware
tom@forgottendelaware.com

Halleluieh! (spelling?)

You are absolutely right. This advocation seems only mildly aware that other operations successes and failures could have industry-wide impact.

There are two things that could help, although I confess I'm not sure I have any sound implementation ideas.

One is "institutional" advertising. This is advertising done for the benefit of developing product awareness-e.g., widgets, not just William's Widgets.

The best known example would be the "got milk" campaign, orchestrated by the dairy industry.

The key to that is that as I understand it (not much, not an ag expert), state milk marketing or dairy associations "tax" individual dairy operations and pay Lee Ann Rimes to wear a milk mustache on the theory that that a rising tide lifts all boats and we all want to be like the celebrities touting the benefits of milk.

The key there is that they can force involuntary contributions. The closest thing we have to a MMB is something like ARM or TRAIN.

Another aspect is milk is a fungible commodity-pretty much the same anyuwhere you get it. As we've seen before there's a lot of passion about one engine vs. another, let alone steam vs. diesel.

The second thing is advanced fundraising. As long as we have an estate tax-whose permanent repeal I'll believe when I see it-we'll have charitible giving as an estate planning technique. I might be wrong, but I don't think rail preservationist have ever had any organized national effort to tap this source of funds. Then there's corporate giving-including matched employee donations- and finally private foundations under IRC Sec 509 that MUST dish out bucks ever year.

There's more but this is just for openers. Thjoughts?

Yeah Mike, many good and true points but we do ourselves a disservice in the belief that the general public - the wider audience we need to approach - cares a lot about the individual engine rather than the general concept of "steam".

We do seem to get bogged down in it ourselves to excess.

As the 1225 and B&O guys will discover, our audiences are impressed with 0-4-0Ts up close and personal. Seeing one swich around the roundhouse and getting a short hop in a caboose behind one can provide initial exposure that can grow into another fascinated customer who will provide a lifetime of support.

The experience of "big steam" out on the mainline is probably more impressive from trackside than on board. Are we making a mistake in trying to fund these events through sales of tickets to passively ride?

Do we want to consider offering the experience of a slow mixed train on a weed grown rural branchline in the Eisenhower administration as a sanity break to modern citizens - a slightly sanitized version with indoor plumbing and air conditioning - in conjunction with general stores, cotton gins, mills, other vestiges of the past adjacent to the track as a whole days family entertainment?

Butts in the seats is only one part of our marketing concern. Getting bogged down in historic detail at the expense of pleasing our audience is another self imposed problem. How we have to compromise to get enough butts in the seats to do meaningful interpretation is worthy of more discussion and thought.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

I think Dave's idea of the "up close and personal" aspect of steam is the way to go, whether with tiny switchers or big road engines. I believe the era of big steam on the main line is largely over, except for company-sponsored operations like UP's. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Beating an engine to death for photo runbys is hard on the equipment and it's hard to see what is pulling the train when you're eight cars back in a sealed-window coach. I think longer excursions are best handled by restored streamliners.

My idea of "big steam" operation is an authentically-restored engine (of whatever size)that chuffs slowly out of its stall in an authentically-restored roundhouse (preferably one that actually maintained the engine in days of yore), onto the turntable, for a few trips back and forth down the lead, as part of an "engineer for an hour" program. This saves wear-and-tear, brings in funding, and interests and educates the public. There are still several places where this can be done, but they are falling rapidly, with scarcely a whimper from any of us.

I also think the word "hobby" is a bit out of place here, and denigrates what we're doing. To me, a hobby is something that amuses people in their spare time, but accomplishes little, like golf. We're saving our historic past here, and while it may be somewhat enjoyable and relaxing at times (and many times not!), it is a worthwhile pursuit that when done well, makes society a better place to live.



ryarger@rypn.org

My opinion is that the revenue generated by folks inside the hobby is the tip of the iceberg compared to the total revenue RR museums get from the general public- thus the newly found importance to many operations of the "Thomas" events. Agree we need to work together more but understanding who is our best customer is paramount.
The key to making money is to make ourselves accessible to families, which is where Corporate America is now targeting more of its advertising. Having targeted all kinds of demographics over the years, smart companies have discovered that 20-somethings grow into 30-somethings with families and are earning more than ever- and they want to do stuff with their kids. To familes, Rail museums are an alternative to Chuck-E-Cheez or a movie or miniature golf, not a religious experience.
Big steam , small steam or no steam ?
It may rankle us a bit, but when the average person thinks "train" they want to see smoke and steam, hear chug-chug and a whistle blow. They don't count the number of drivers and they'll take your word for it when you proudly announce that you personally carved the frame out of a solid block of steel. They want to see and ride in cabooses and the cupola is the place to be. In passenger cars they want to sit together and not get too hot or cold , too wet, or a sore butt. Scenery would be nice. They dont want to take the family truckster and go to SteamWorld and spend all damn day, they just want a few hours out and have some fun. Learning is OK but not the real focus. Maybe if it was raining an indoor museum might attract them if it had hands-on "discovery-type" displays. (Only nut-cases like us would want the interpretive exhibits to include hot-riveting and thermite welding.) Bathrooms, baby changing stations and water fountains are deeply appreciated.
And dont forget that they and their kids will want a hot dog and a soda and a whistle just like the one he saw some other kid with a minute ago. Normal families dont buy giftshop items like videos of 20 slip-sliding-double-headed-cab-riding-charter-freight-sentimental locomotive favorites. If the kids are having fun, the parents are too, but by and large when a child foams the parents are concerned.
Im rambling a bit, but my point is that we can't support our mission solely on the basis of what *we* appreciate, give the public what they want (since they are your prime bill-payers) , lighten their wallet a bit and use that opportunity to broaden their horizons. Next time they visit they just might ask whether you really carved that frame yourself.

Bill

staybolt@bellsouth.net

Great post! What you are saying is dead on. You need to be 'people friendly' at the same time as the main interest there. People can get turned off quickly by even the smallest of things. "NO baby changing station...?"

I agree with what you are saying, makes me think anyway.

Jeff Lisowski
West Chester, PA

Free book
unfunkyufo76@hotmail.com

I think what we are missing here is reality. I believe that the average John Q. could care less about railroad history or preservation. Today's Star Wars mentality has to be entertained every minute and a slow 15 - 25 mph train ride is not it (unless you have scenery like the Durango & Silverton etc). Unless an attraction has something special to offer (other than "just the train itself"), the public (non-railfans) will come maybe once and then never come back.

As far as mainline steam, if we want it to continue, we must all support it financially. Even if we don't ride, we should buy a ticket. Maybe the sponsoring organization should openly advertise that support tickets are still on sale, even though the trip is sold out. This might be better than just putting a trip sold out message on an answering machine.

Finally, the last two steam trips I rode were too sterile. perhaps if two or even more baggage cars were up close behind the power, everyone who actually wanted to hear and smell could be accomodated without the risk of open vestibules. Also some of us still like speed. I remember coming back to Denver one evening in the 70's behind the 8444 at close to 90 mph. What a thrill.

> I think what we are missing here is reality.
> I believe that the average John Q. could
> care less about railroad history or
> preservation. Today's Star Wars mentality
> has to be entertained every minute and a
> slow 15 - 25 mph train ride is not it
> (unless you have scenery like the Durango
> & Silverton etc). Unless an attraction
> has something special to offer (other than
> "just the train itself"), the
> public (non-railfans) will come maybe once
> and then never come back.

> As far as mainline steam, if we want it to
> continue, we must all support it
> financially. Even if we don't ride, we
> should buy a ticket. Maybe the sponsoring
> organization should openly advertise that
> support tickets are still on sale, even
> though the trip is sold out. This might be
> better than just putting a trip sold out
> message on an answering machine.

> Finally, the last two steam trips I rode
> were too sterile. perhaps if two or even
> more baggage cars were up close behind the
> power, everyone who actually wanted to hear
> and smell could be accomodated without the
> risk of open vestibules. Also some of us
> still like speed. I remember coming back to
> Denver one evening in the 70's behind the
> 8444 at close to 90 mph. What a thrill.

"UP 8444 into Denver one nite at nearly 90mph..."
was that the night they had forgotten we were out there and let the operator go home so that we sat out North of Denver for about an hour or so ??
If it was, we were on the same train. Jim


rrfanjim@mvn.net

> Halleluieh! (spelling?)

> You are absolutely right. This advocation
> seems only mildly aware that other
> operations successes and failures could have
> industry-wide impact.

> There are two things that could help,
> although I confess I'm not sure I have any
> sound implementation ideas.

> One is "institutional"
> advertising. This is advertising done for
> the benefit of developing product
> awareness-e.g., widgets, not just William's
> Widgets.

> The best known example would be the
> "got milk" campaign, orchestrated
> by the dairy industry.

> The key to that is that as I understand it
> (not much, not an ag expert), state milk
> marketing or dairy associations
> "tax" individual dairy operations
> and pay Lee Ann Rimes to wear a milk
> mustache on the theory that that a rising
> tide lifts all boats and we all want to be
> like the celebrities touting the benefits of
> milk.

> The key there is that they can force
> involuntary contributions. The closest thing
> we have to a MMB is something like ARM or
> TRAIN.

> Another aspect is milk is a fungible
> commodity-pretty much the same anyuwhere you
> get it. As we've seen before there's a lot
> of passion about one engine vs. another, let
> alone steam vs. diesel.

> The second thing is advanced fundraising. As
> long as we have an estate tax-whose
> permanent repeal I'll believe when I see
> it-we'll have charitible giving as an estate
> planning technique. I might be wrong, but I
> don't think rail preservationist have ever
> had any organized national effort to tap
> this source of funds. Then there's corporate
> giving-including matched employee donations-
> and finally private foundations under IRC
> Sec 509 that MUST dish out bucks ever year.

> There's more but this is just for openers.
> Thjoughts?

Mike; Please don't feel bad if spelling "Halleluiah"(Praise the Lord)_gives you trouble.
We had a retired railroad secretary, Ruby, who volunteered to fill a secretarial vacancy at our church until they could hire a new one. It took
about 10 years to find a new one.
Anyway, one day while I was there doing some repair work I heard the preacher ask Ruby how to spell "Halleluiah". Ruby spelled it out for him
and then after a couple of minutes said "Reverend, maybe you'd better look that up. We didn't use that word around the railroad much."

Jim


rrfanjim@mvn.net

I feel like I'm always saying this, but it isn't just about steam. I have been very discouraged to find out how many people are highly upset with us for ruining the beautiful view of "their" depot. In recent postings in "talkback," a phone commentary listing in our local newspaper, we have had at least a dozen somehwat nasty calls that hate that "boxcar thing" in front of our depot. After two years of hard work and restoration, its pretty tough not to take that personally.

Funny, I had prepared myself for the railbuffs out there nit-picking different aspects of the car that may not be 100% original; I never thought that putting a restored combine next to the depot platform would cause such a fuss. I have tried to explain the situation: what i get is a group of people who only see with blinders on; what I see as a valuable historical asset they see as a big box blocking the building. I have had nothing but great support from the rail preservation community; its the local people who seem to hate the idea of the car.

We have very tight quarters to work with, so we can't really move the car back from the depot, although (unfortunately for us) its looks like we can because there is open land (that the State of Michigan owns, not us) just to the north of the car. Moral of all this? I don't know, other than the fact that next time I'll think twice about moving a restored rail car into a community that is more concerned about blocking the view of its "cute" (man I hate that term) depot than about historical accuracy.

TJ

Port Huron Museum

tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

> I feel like I'm always saying this, but it
> isn't just about steam. I have been very
> discouraged to find out how many people are
> highly upset with us for ruining the
> beautiful view of "their" depot.
> In recent postings in "talkback,"
> a phone commentary listing in our local
> newspaper, we have had at least a dozen
> somehwat nasty calls that hate that
> "boxcar thing" in front of our
> depot. After two years of hard work and
> restoration, its pretty tough not to take
> that personally.

> Funny, I had prepared myself for the
> railbuffs out there nit-picking different
> aspects of the car that may not be 100%
> original; I never thought that putting a
> restored combine next to the depot platform
> would cause such a fuss. I have tried to
> explain the situation: what i get is a group
> of people who only see with blinders on;
> what I see as a valuable historical asset
> they see as a big box blocking the building.
> I have had nothing but great support from
> the rail preservation community; its the
> local people who seem to hate the idea of
> the car.

> We have very tight quarters to work with, so
> we can't really move the car back from the
> depot, although (unfortunately for us) its
> looks like we can because there is open land
> (that the State of Michigan owns, not us)
> just to the north of the car. Moral of all
> this? I don't know, other than the fact that
> next time I'll think twice about moving a
> restored rail car into a community that is
> more concerned about blocking the view of
> its "cute" (man I hate that term)
> depot than about historical accuracy.

> TJ

Thanks TJ for that beautiful shot of the 4-8-4.
I guess we are lucky here. We have the IC 2500
on display in one of our parks and last year the
BN gave us a caboose which we moved to our
Centralia Area Historical Society which is on the edge of our downtown area. The public reception
of both has been great.
Incidentally,one of our historical society's goals is to have the finest collection of Illinois
Central Memorabilia on the system.
Jim


rrfanjim@mvn.net

Take comfort in the security that with age comes increasing thickness of skin. If nobody dislikes something you are accomplishing, you are simply getting nothing much accomplished.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> As far as mainline steam, if we want it to
> continue, we must all support it
> financially. Even if we don't ride, we
> should buy a ticket. Maybe the sponsoring
> organization should openly advertise that
> support tickets are still on sale, even
> though the trip is sold out. This might be
> better than just putting a trip sold out
> message on an answering machine.

Time to for you and Tom Gears to put your $$ behind your words. Are either of you financially supporting the 3751 trip from Los Angeles to Grand Canyon this summer? If so, I applaude you. If not, empty talk is a waste of time and board space. BTW, I'll be there.

wyld@sbcglobal.net

Bad mental images last a long time. My wife will forever remember a brief 1974 visit to Cumbres Pass. "You mean that place that had the filthy outhouse?"

> Great post! What you are saying is dead on.
> You need to be 'people friendly' at the same
> time as the main interest there. People can
> get turned off quickly by even the smallest
> of things. "NO baby changing
> station...?"

> I agree with what you are saying, makes me
> think anyway.

> Jeff Lisowski
> West Chester, PA


ryarger@rypn.org

>> The experience of "big steam" out
> on the mainline is probably more impressive
> from trackside than on board. Are we making
> a mistake in trying to fund these events
> through sales of tickets to passively ride?

I think you hit it right on the head. If thats the case, this must be funded as a "loss leader"-like selling peanut butter in a grocery store at a minimal margin so you buy the meat and taters too- or as advertising.