The EBT Connecting Railroad is Back

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:16 pm

Posted without comment:

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ ... 235663.pdf

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ ... 235684.pdf

dinwitty · **Joined:** Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm **Posts:** 2226

/me likes

I dunno if certain existing trackage will get standard guage or dual gauge, the Mount Union Yard has been a dual gauge mecca. Be fun if to see Narrow gauge steamers switching out the repair cars, but I tend to think that might not happen. Unless they pull that 0-6-0 out and restore it...

The developments here are promising, the previous owners have not had this such envision, except to think they wanted to get out of the "business" but try to see it goes the right way out. If you get a "visionary group" together to persue and continue EBT, thats the way to make it happen. I think its looking good so far. Again as far as the hopper cars go you cannot use them again for coal service, you would have to get new cars. Let keep watch and see how it goes.

robertmacdowell · **Posted:** Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:06 pm

Except that the first car they roll into a lineside customer... will kick the tourist operation into the "General System of Transportation", which means ALL of the inspection and paperwork requirements of 49 CFR will come down on their heads. I don't know too many operations that can cope with that without full time paid staff.

elueck · **Posted:** Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:50 am

"EBTPA has conducted excursion passenger operations over the Line; however, that service is currently suspended."

When has excursion service ever been offered in Mt. Union, or the Mt. Union yard?

Operating freight service in Mt. Union does not make the NG portion of the EBT, which is not part of this application become part of the "general system" since there is still no operable connecting track between the two, there can be no interchange because of gauge, and also at this moment, I have not seen where EBTPA, has claimed ownership of any of the NG trackage.

EDM · **Posted:** Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:01 pm

Didn't Mount Union Connecting, which was a previous operator, and maybe still related, have some sort of standard gauge Plymouth critter on the property? I remember reading that they kept in in the house with the 0-6-0.

dinwitty · **Joined:** Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm **Posts:** 2226

I remember peeking in that engine house, I think I only saw the 0-6-0, that was mid 80's, and it was tree grown then. Like a ghost railroad. Doesnt say I might have missed seeing a critter.

JimBoylan · **Posted:** Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:37 pm

I think that the Diesel loco arrived in the Mt. Union engine house sometime early in this century, so the 2nd track in it would have been vacant in the 1980s.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:45 pm

The vacant track of the enginehouse was left vacant when EBT 0-6-0 6 was sold ca. 1974 to the Whitewater Valley RR in Indiana, where it remains in dismantled condition last I knew.

The Plymouth-looking "lokie," which I vaguely recall as looking just like one of those notorious mis-scaled "critters" made by Tyco or the like sold by toy train shops in the 1970s, was moved in a decade or more ago when this first round of the Mt. Union Connecting RR was set up. It occupied the stall formerly housing #6. I have no idea if it's there still, or where it came from.

junior · **Posted:** Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:34 am

elueck wrote:

"EBTPA has conducted excursion passenger operations over the Line; however, that service is currently suspended."

When has excursion service ever been offered in Mt. Union, or the Mt. Union yard?

Operating freight service in Mt. Union does not make the NG portion of the EBT, which is not part of this application become part of the "general system" since there is still no operable connecting track between the two, there can be no interchange because of gauge, and also at this moment, I have not seen where EBTPA, has claimed ownership of any of the NG trackage.

I think the implication is; since the EBT's narrow gauge rail enters into dual gauge with the Mt Union Connecting Railroad, within its existing Standard gauge operations/portion, it would place the entire EBT under since it would have interaction with the standard gauge portion, unless they completely eliminated the Dual Gauge over those several miles of the ROW... which I don't see happening.

Just because the Narrow Gauge portion is not pulling freight, it still enters Standard Gauge rail and once that SG is active, it throws a monkey wrench into some things for the NG...

... I could be wrong?

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:45 am

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

The vacant track of the enginehouse was left vacant when EBT 0-6-0 6 was sold ca. 1974 to the Whitewater Valley RR in Indiana, where it remains in dismantled condition last I knew.

The Plymouth-looking "lokie," which I vaguely recall as looking just like one of those notorious mis-scaled "critters" made by Tyco or the like sold by toy train shops in the 1970s, was moved in a decade or more ago when this first round of the Mt. Union Connecting RR was set up. It occupied the stall formerly housing #6. I have no idea if it's there still, or where it came from.

You're right about the Plymouth diesel at Mount Union. I've seen it, too, and there was a discussion about it on the Bachmann model train page as part of a larger conversation on various scales, specifically the idea of commercial models in HO narrow gauges (like here, conversations can drift a bit).

This included somehow going into industrial locomotives, and in looking for images as part of the discussion, I came across these:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/lbr3.jpg

No mistaking the locations of these photos for fans of the EBT:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/lbr3b.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/lbr3a.jpg

The unit turned out to be a rare one, a Plymouth CR-4. According to a poster at Bachmann using the name CNE Runner,

Quote:

The CR-4 was introduced in 1960 and was available in weight ranges from 20 to 60 tons (track gauges 30" to 48.5" - horsepower from 150 to 700). This locomotive model was designed primarily for industrial and light foreign use. You might have noticed that it is not available in standard U.S. gauge (56.5"). I should also point out that this model featured a center cab arrangement.

I was in the conversation, and replied,

Quote:

Well, that's interesting! If that's the case, then what is the very similar looking model on the standard gauge track at Mt. Union, which I've actually seen?

I have to admit, this business of identifying these critters is a bit out of my league. It's as different a world from standard railroading as logging roads, and with small and sometimes obscure builders, and production that undoubtedly includes a lot of custom work and one-off models.

That's one of the fascinating things about this hobby--no one can know everything!

CNE Runner replied,

Quote:

The most unusual 'spotting feature' of the locomotive in my (and your) previous post is the shark nose. Only the CR models were styled in this manner. There were 3 CR Plymouth models (although the CR-6 was planned - but never built). Of the remaining two CR models the image you have provided is clearly a CR-4 (the CR-8 and 8XT were all 8-wheeled models and not relevant in this case).

The Plymouth CR-4 is a very rare critter and I am surprised to hear that you have actually seen one. Plymouth Locomotive Works only built five of these models (1957 - 1965); but discontinued production when it became apparent the CR was no improvement over the MDT model. Oh, of the five CR-4s built, one was exported out of the U.S...leaving only four stateside.

Please keep in mind, J3a-614, that many of these little engines were extensively modified over their working life...perhaps the one you saw was modified for standard gauge. I happen to possess an original sales brochure for the CR line and it clearly states under track gauge "...30 to 48.5". BUT in the supplied technical schematic (part of the same brochure) it shows a width of 10' 0", a height of 10' 6", and a distance between the flanges of ('ready for this?) 4' 8.5"!!!! Apparently the sales department and the technical lads were on different wavelengths.

I hope this answer your question...I enjoyed the research.
Ray

BTW: the CR-4 was the basis for Mantua's HO model.

My reply:

Quote:

Thanks for the research!

As you noted, it looks like the machine actually was available as a standard gauge job. All those dimensions you mention, including an overall width of 10', are suggestive of a standard gauge unit.

The one I saw was at the Mount Union Connecting Railroad in Mt. Union, Pa. This is the standard and dual gauge portion of the famous East Broad Top Railroad & Coal Company. The purpose of this firm is to reopen the northern 3 miles of so of the EBT from Mt. Union to the Riverview Business Center industrial park south of Allenport.

http://www.spikesys.com/EBT/News/mucrr.html

[From a source for which the link no longer works]

Self-propelled equipment roster (motor cars and locomotives other than steam, plus MoW equipment); Mt. Union Connecting (MTC) 3 was built by Plymouth in June of 1960 for Jones & Laughlin, and carries builder's No. 6216CR4, and weighs 60 tons.

Talk about a rare bird! And the thing shares space in an enginehouse in Mt. Union with a standard gauge EBT steam switcher!

http://www.spikesys.com/EBT/

http://www.ebtrr.com/equip/

"Modern" equipment on this railroad:

http://www.ebtrr.com/equip/diesel.html

I had the chance to speak to Allen Levin about a year or two ago in Mt. Union [this would have been 2009 or 2008, the discussion on the Bachmann page was in 2010] when the enginehouse up there was open during one of EBT's fall events. He mentioned the Mantua/Tyco model, and said the model is apparently rare enough that some of his model railroading aquaintances didn't believe it had been made, and he was looking for one to prove them wrong.

According to the Spikesys.com website on the EBT, the unit was delivered there on April 10 of 2003:

http://www.spikesys.com/EBT/News/mucrr.html

Photos of the delivery from the Spikesys.com site, shared from William Adams' EBT Pictorial site:

http://www.spikesys.com/Bin/EBT/wa0001.jpg

http://www.spikesys.com/Bin/EBT/wa0002.jpg

http://www.spikesys.com/Bin/EBT/wa0003.jpg

Now, for the big question, is this unit still there?

Oh, for those of you who are thinking of acquiring the old Mantua model, I said at the time:

Quote:

Wonder what I should do with the model I own, which is orange and silver and lettered for General Electric?

For the record, I do not consider it one of Mantua's best efforts. It has brass wheels that are very sensitive to dirt (and will pick up dirt and tarnish at the drop of a hat); other than this it does run halfway decently, especially considering its age and what I assume to be a toy market target. The mechanism looks like it might be very similar if not identical to that of a 4-wheel trolley Mantua offered in about the same time period. And part of it is riveted together for permanence!

What were the designers thinking?

What were the designers drinking?

Argh!

extra16south · **Joined:** Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:55 pm **Posts:** 27

Answering two questions.....

First, the EBTPA nor the EBTC have ANYTHING to do with the narrow gauge tourist section of the railroad. No lease or ownership of any kind. The railfan mecca in Rockhill is safe in the hands of the Kovalchick Co.

Secondly, that boat anchor the MTC drug in in 2003 is gone. It left last fall and headed to the WMSR. The CR-4 was non operational when it arrived, and was non operational when it left. Good riddance.

traingeek8223 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:19 pm

Quote:

I have no idea if it's there still, or where it came from.

It was purchased from Genesee Valley Transportation's Mohawk Adirondack & Northern. It was formerly the switcher at Benson Mines, near Star Lake in Northern New York. It has not operated since the mine shut down to my knowledge. It was inherited when the MA&N purchased the branch from Carthage to Newton Falls.

dinwitty · **Joined:** Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm **Posts:** 2226

extra16south wrote:

Answering two questions.....

First, the EBTPA nor the EBTC have ANYTHING to do with the narrow gauge tourist section of the railroad. No lease or ownership of any kind. The railfan mecca in Rockhill is safe in the hands of the Kovalchick Co.

Secondly, that boat anchor the MTC drug in in 2003 is gone. It left last fall and headed to the WMSR. The CR-4 was non operational when it arrived, and was non operational when it left. Good riddance.

ok, rather confused here, we need a list out whos doing what out there and whose involved at what.

Alan Maples · **Posted:** Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:35 pm

extra16south wrote:

Secondly, that boat anchor the MTC drug in in 2003 is gone. It left last fall and headed to the WMSR. The CR-4 was non operational when it arrived, and was non operational when it left. Good riddance.

This is correct; the CR-4 is now at the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad which obtained it for use as a shop switcher. I understand that it has been operated and proven handy for its intended purpose.

Alan Maples

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:11 pm

Alan Maples wrote:

This is correct; the CR-4 is now at the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad which obtained it for use as a shop switcher. I understand that it has been operated and proven handy for its intended purpose.

Alan Maples

Considering its rarity, I'm glad it found what sounds like a good home. I'll have to see if I can get a look at it the next time I'm in Ridgeley, which just might be tomorrow!