Review and discuss (I don't think it's behind the Kalmbach paywall):

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/staff/archiv ... tions.aspx

Steam, the Internet, and strong emotions

Hi,

My first job out of college was in 1980 working for electronics firms as a test engineer.

Two items:

1) if you can not do it with paper and pencil (without a computer in other words) you can not do it with a computer. The "pencil and paper" method is your programming flow chart.

2) All a computer does is do things faster. If you make a mistake, the compute will make it bigger and faster and require more time to correct than doing it manually.

The way people take partial information and go throw it all out of proportion is due to the speed of computers and the internet. One mistaken comment will generate a huge amount of "Oh My God We're Gonna Die" panic reactions. Everyone jumping on the band wagon without think it through.

Best advice - pre-computer - count to ten. Post computer - count to a million.

FWIW

Doug vV

Just a few observations that I had after reading this:

1. If you are a non profit in this industry, you need to be engaged in some level on the internet. Like it or not, it is how people communicate, get information, and donate money.

2. I can think of two examples of steam mechanics who previoiusly tried to use the internet to promote their work and/or business. That stopped when they couldn't take the criticism, or because they failed to really think out their claims and what they were saying. It's hard to talk back to a press release or magazine article. It's easier to engage on a forum such as this. If you use the internet and social media to promote your work or business, be prepared for criticism. No matter how hard you try, you cannot manage the situation and turn it into a one way street.

3. If you are in this industry, and on the internet, learn what the "Streisand Effect" is. If you don't know what it is, Google it. Learn from it.

4. I find it interesting that unnamed mechanic that Mr. Wrinn refers to in his article is only wishing the internet hadn't been invented, but not the media as a whole. This person, whether a single person or composite, believes that they can get better publicity, and without being subjected to criticism, by using traditional access to media. A publication like Trains wants access, likely "exclusive" to this project, and as such will be a lot friendlier than the jaded commentariat of RYPN. The mechanic figures that Trains will probably not ask difficult questions, and that they can "manage" this media outlet better than the masses. I find that very telling, that the industry press is viewed as "friendlier" and thus less critical. I'm not blaming Mr. Wrinn or others, as Trains isn't the Washington Post. Their readership isn't as concerned with "hard news."

I have often wondered how TRAINS Magazine views their relationship with the entities they cover. Do they see themselves as a news publication, doing investigations, and reporting impartially, good or bad? Or just as a conduit for information to their readers? Or as the PR department for the hobby? Their coverage over the past 15 or so years of several Midwestern steam groups, as well as the UP steam program, has been more in the PR department mode vs. really reporting the news.

Criticism from a few oddballs long predates the Internet in this business. See the thread below about memorable quotes in the railfan hobby. The Michigan railfan scene - where I got my first experience with hands-on restoration and operations - was especially filled with mud-slingers 20-25 years ago. The difference is: back then, they would show up to your meetings or events, and even attempt to get involved in your operation, with predictable results. I would rather have these people sitting behind a keyboard at home.

I have found the majority of projects that get criticized over the Internet are deserving of it - see the PRR 1361 restoration, the ridiculous effort to operate the Reading 2100 in Tacoma, the entire bizarre saga of the UP Big Boy restoration, etc. People involved in these efforts would have done well to taken the advice of people who criticized them on this and other forums. Criticism does mean people care about and are interested in your work, right?

Chris.

I was on the internet before there was an internet on something called PLATO, local college had a terminal and added 2 more and I was there, it pretty much originated everything you see on the net today like email (personal-notes) chat (talkomatic), forums (notes) online gaming, and educational courseware

to check it out, here ya goes.

http://www.cyber1.org/index.asp

for a history here..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLATO_%28 ... _system%29

I used my nick < on there first as I did whos on first in High school talent show (Sebastion Dinwitty) and stuck with the nick.

Its a celebration of comedy but its about name security as well.

But it lets some maliciousness fly on. There are good people on the net, then there's others. Thats life.

The railroad preservation needs it, I've seen stronger info sharing like here which is invaluable.

so lets go.

The internet is accomplishing the failure of your enemy. Without it we would already be well under the world system that JFK spoke of in his famous Rice University speech (NWO speech).

The net can do great things, if we work with it not against it.

Shoot, dinwitty, you got me beat. I had my start on the ARPANET via Stanford Research (SRI) back in the mid 1970s. Actually it was my dad’s account, but I would handle much of the printing of emails as that was a bit of a chore at the time. I had never heard of PLATO so interesting to learn something new here today.

My view of that early period of email was that it extended the work day by 6 hours. We could begin reading emails they sent the night before 3 hours before the west coast people were out of bed, and then they would send additional emails 3 hours after our east coast office closed. It sounds so simple today, but it was a damn big deal back in those days.

My view today is that the internet has not ruined rail preservation. Its the people who do not take the time to think before hitting send that have ruined the concept. In general there is a missing sense of respect online and in public in general. Like being in Disney’s Magic Kingdom a few weeks back and hearing the F bomb numerous times. Really? In Disney?

Bringing this back to rail preservation, the Army tends to call the newer recruits “digital natives.” This new soldier has never been without the internet, never really been without google, may never have picked up a hard copy of an encyclopedia, may not have ever had to use instructions to turn on a new phone/radio/computer. They join the Army and the first thing the Army does is take away the cell phone. To learn to use a new radio, the soldier goes to school for 24 weeks. There is a move now to reverse this. Chat has become a popular app within various Army systems as an example. And yes, the droid phones have found a place on the battle field.

So, as a new generation joins the museum as a volunteer keep this “digital native” idea in mind. Yes, there are some places the phone is not allowed, but otherwise its going to be attached to them. That’s just the way it is. Best to embrace it, not fight it, if you want to attract that younger volunteer.

J.R.

One more observation:

The interactive nature of the Internet makes it easier to call out BS when one sees it. Before, if you wanted to criticize an article or news story, you pulled out the Remington-Rand and wrote a letter to the editor. Not every letter got printed, and the editorial staff at a publication had great power over the message that appeared. Even if your letter appeared, it would often be 1-2 issues, if not more later.

Today, if someone gets on here, purports to be an expert and makes an idiotic statement, they open themselves up to swift and immediate criticism.

I kind of think the Internet also helps keep people a bit more honest and transparent.

It IS something to think about, IMO.

Something that is not new at all is the fact that there are some folks out there that are trying to do things that are beyond the level of their competence, experience, or knowledge. That will always be with us, in all walks of life, vocations and avocations.

Another thing that is not new is that there are experienced, knowledgeable people who know BS when they hear or read it and are not afraid the throw the flag in hopes of keeping some neophytes from being sucked in. They can usually tell, again from experience, when real work is being done (or is being overlooked), and when trivial things and blatant mistakes are being trumpeted as major accomplishments.

Somewhere in the middle is the vast group who isn't all that knowledgeable about the subject, but wants to be and wants to learn. Sometimes, these well-meaning folks cannot tell if they are being conned or not, as they do not have the background to know. Goods intentions are fine, but not enough. They will eat up some of the blarney and put their faith in false prophets, all while ignoring or even trashing those who have actually walked the walk. For example, a lot of people get on Ross Rowland's case, but how many of them have as much experience under their belt as he?

And let's not overlook the minority who neither know nor care, but think they do and want everyone else to think they do. These folks are like Kamikazes; they want the instant result and hang the consequenses.

One of the posters above talked about where the magazines stand. Face it, they depend on snuggling up to companies and individuals for access and income. They don't investigate anything or they put the best face on bad news because they want to avoid losing access. Too often this morphs into blatant and shameless boosterism. They also want these things to succeed so they can use that access to put out expensive special issues, videos, books, calendars, etc. that will sell.

This isn't new, either. Magazine back issues from decades ago can yield articles where this or that mechanic is being touted, only to see everything he was ever involved with being relegated to the dead line later.

It's pretty obvious whose sails are being pumped up by the piece we are discussing.

Hi,

This talk reminds me of the not-fully-enlightened-but-believes-all-without-looking-into-the-background Virus from about 1997.

An email went around saying that there was a virus that was placing file such-and-such.com in the Windows folder. It told the email reader to delete the such-and-such.com file and I had many people calling me to say about their computer not working. I asked a few questions and found out the people got the email and "panicked" by deleting the file. It turned out the file was a custom version file for Win 95 (or maybe Win 98). Once deleted the computer would not boot.

One person out of 20-odd wanting help had made a copy of the file. I told him to boot to floppy and then copy the saved file to the proper location. The rest had to start over reloading Windows 9x and all the applications.

This virus had no custom programs - just scared the user into reaction without thinking. One of the most effective and simple "virus's" I've ever seen.

I think this goes back to the saying that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

I think that OVERALL, the internet has many more positives than negatives.

Doug vV

If you are working in this business you have to have a thick skin. Even legitimate experts will disagree about which right way to do something is the rightest....... idiots think there's only one right way. If you are not in the shoes of the guy who is working to create something under his specific set of circumstances, your opinion really isn't worth considering unless you are invited and informed about the situation and particulars. Many of us knew who we could approach for professional collaboration, not second guessing - and it wasn't done on a public forum, but through personal correspondence.

I don't consider this kind of forum on the internet to be as potentially destructive as social media, which by definition only allows for sound bites instead of details. Here things can be collaboratively explored - with a few valueless interventions, but generally you can brainstorm with people who know enough to contribute things of meaning. I do a lot more of that in group emails, by the way... if I have the right group to help me work things out.

There's a lot of good knowledge here - more here than in most other places.

pre-internet, you watch TV, see a news clip or movie or whatever, somebody does something really stupid and you find yourself yelling at the TV...
but you had no other recourse but to scream at the TV, now you have the medium to scream thru, instantly, and someone else can see it.

It has been my experience that the ones who gripe the most about being criticized on the the internet tend to be the ones with the most to be legitimately criticized about.

IOW, the ones who flout the rules and laws and common sense and then brag about it.
They don't like being caught red-handed.

Some thoughts,

I do believe that in large, internet has had a positive impact on railway preservation.

It has allowed those who are involved in the field to communicate with other museums, or to find suppliers for that item they need to complete a project, etc. A prime example of this is the KM restoration project by the Niles Canyon group. They have people contributing in all shapes and form from across the world - just because they found about it on the internet!

It has allowed railfans and non-railfans alike, to discover either museums they didn't know existed, or what is going on at their favorite museum.

Museum with the internet, found a way to "advertise" themselves.

It has also help funding of certain projects, which would have not happened otherwise if potential donors had not found out about it on the internet.

Many photo collections have found their way to the internet and, as a result (whether you approve or not), all may now see these unknown images of the past. Many of us, now know of many locations around the world, just because we now have the chance to see all of these images from the comfort of our couch or porch!

If the internet did not exist, neither would this forum!

Yes the internet has also brought negative things. Not much different from talk shows on the radio where both the informed and the uninformed have a forum to speak up.

At the end, the internet is a plus for the preservation community.

Len.

For better or worse, the genie is out of the bottle and he's not going back in.