So recently after seeing some posting related to the old K&T #14 project in Stearns, KY and the issues that arose with that, myself and a group of friends moved into a private discussion as to whether or not Kentucky overall has failed at steam locomotive restoration. Disclaimer, I'm in no way badmouthing any museums or organizations that own and operate steam in Kentucky. My question to everyone here is, in your opinion, has Kentucky overall failed at the aspect of steam locomotive preservation. In a sense, I would argue yes. While some locomotives are preserved and the care of certain locomotives is improving, let's look at the last 5 years or so.

L&N 152 at the KRM has been out of service since 2010 or 2011 I believe, which is over 10 years at this point. They have finally made some good progressing, removing the frame from the wheels and my understanding is that bidding for the boiler repair contract will begin sometime soon. However, it took them several years to raise the money either through donations or grants for the restoration. I've always questioned why fundraising was not started a few years before the locomotive was due to be removed from service, as Kentucky is not the best state in terms of getting donations (in high school we would do small fundraisers and often wouldn't get a single donation). We also have the L&N 2152 and the Louisville Cement #11 located at the KRM's grounds. Until the last five years or so, both locomotives were rusting away and sitting on sidings. I believe a group of younger volunteers had the #11 moved to the entrance of the museum and has since been cosmetically restored. As far as the #2152 goes, the work of a retired volunteer has almost single handled invest time (and probably his own money) into the cosmetic restoration of the 2152. It's still not fully finished, but looks 100x better than it did before. I have seen recent murmurs of whether or not the 2152 could be returned to operation alongside 152; whether or not that will happen is doubtful considering there struggles to get money for 152, but I guess we'll see. It would give them the title of having 2/3 L&N steamers running, plus the only running 0-8-0 in the U.S. So props to the KRM to really turning things around from what they were looking like 5-10 years ago.

The Big South Fork Scenic Railway in Kentucky had the K&T #14 restoration project, though the certain news fresh in everyones' minds, we all know what happened there. But I find it frustrating that after so many years and the resolution that Wasatch was directed to pay $720,000 to them (which won't happen but still) they haven't made any attempt to fundraise. Sure, it may take a few years and I'm unfamiliar with the mechanical shape that the 14 was in, but it's a somewhat smaller 0-6-0 and the interest among railfans would certainly be there to eventually get the funding for someone to do the work correctly this time. I've even reached out to the museum and asked if there are any restart plans or if there is any way that railfans such as myself and others in Kentucky could assist the organization with the locomotive. My emails were returned with some hostility last year, telling me that the locomotive's current status is not publicly shared at this time and they "are not accepting inquiries". I get that there's some legality there and somewhat of a sore spot, but that could really turn people away if there ever was big money wanting to get into the project.

There's also the Reader #11 out in Nicholasville, KY. It hasn't run in several years, but it is a small 2-6-2 Prairie type. I believe the city of Nicholasville owns it? I've seen people suggest it go to KRM, but I'll put out a more daring suggestion and inquire why the BGRM hasn't shown interest in it. Nothing against them, but when #152 is running again at KRM, it will probably the more "popular" museum out of two. Having the #11 moved and restored would give BGRM a popularity boost for sure, especially since the #11's career was cut short years ago and I've seen others inquire about the locomotive in the last couple of years. I guess the issue probably comes down to actually getting the money to restore it, plus the hassle of getting it from the city, or purchasing it from the city. From a logical standpoint though, it would be a good fit for the size of their line and would be a valuable asset. Unless they have previously considered attempting to acquire the locomotive, I don't see any disadvantage to at least reaching out to the city to see if they'd be willing to negotiate. Plus the moving distance is not all that great between the two locations. My point is that it is a small locomotive like that is a good candidate for restoration, assuming it is in sound mechanical condition, but no organizations in the state seem to want to take that opportunity.

My final organization of note is Kentucky Steam. They've seemed to make the most progress out of anyone in KY with the C&O 2716 restoration. However, I haven't seen them post any updates on the locomotive and the last photo I saw, the locomotive doesn't look like its made much progress in the last year. Perhaps you can't see the work from the angle of the photo, bit I'm assuming they've made progress on it, as they have a projected completion date of 2024, unless the project stalls. They also have the R.J. Corman QJ #2008 that was donated to them, but I don't believe it has been moved yet. They initially had it listed on their site as "being evaluated for a return to steam", but I don't know if that restoration after 2716 is still in the works or not. It was not run often at all by RJC, so it would probably need the bare minimum for its 1,472-day. I'm a little surprised they haven't moved it and attempted to complete its inspection before 2716 since (theoretically) it would be a quicker process and they could use it to make money towards the 2716, but I suppose the 2716 income will go to good use towards 2008.

I say that KY overall has failed in many aspects of steam restoration not necessarily due to incompetence, as the 4 organizations I've mentioned all have dedicated volunteers who know what they're doing, but I feel the state fails in restoration for financial reasons. I don't know what it is about Kentucky, but getting donations for anything is damn near impossible. Like I've said, we'd do fundraisers for different national and local organizations when I was in high school and we would do events, table in front of stores, car washes, etc., and would seriously sit for two - three days and get absolutely no donations or support from the communities we went to. I think the organizations lack in the overall advertising front to really draw in outside donations, which is what they have to rely on due to lack of "hometown support" in the state. When #152 was taken out of service, I didn't see any strong sense of advertisement and donation requests until at least 2-3 years after the engine was OOS. The K&T group (imo) also lacks in advertising. If they were to promote their organization and ask for donations on a more national scale, there is the support in place to eventually get the money for the #14 restoration.

On a personal experience, I've noticed a bit of a lack of ambition from organizations. When I used to volunteer at KRM every so often (this was about 8 years ago, so the mentality may have changed), I asked if they would be interested in restoring 2152 after 152. One of their mechanical staff answered with "we have one good running L&N steam locomotive, why would we want to bother with another?" I can understand this somewhat, especially given the history of 2152 in its later years of service, plus sitting in the Kentucky weather for multiple decades, who knows what shape it's in mechanically (I get the feeling not very good), but I feel that having that negative attitude is detrimental over time. I wouldn't have felt so put off if the answer had been "we don't have the resources or couldn't get the funding for the amount of work that would be needed for 2152" or "we just don't have a big interest in the locomotive, we want to focus only on 152".

I think the state as a whole is on the upward path, but I feel that there have been things that I've mentioned in the past years that could have easily be done differently to improve the state of things now in many aspects. Overall, I feel the lack of ambition and more state-related financial support (only relying on limited local donors or state grants) has really stunted the steam restoration industry in Kentucky over the last 5-10 years.

Sir, this is a Wendy's.

I don’t think it has anything to do with the state but a lack of will and poor leadership from the organizations.

Anything can happen if you let it.

Nothing will happen if you strike down every idea brought to the table.

I’m not sure we should be ready to condemn the leadership of these organizations for their “failure” when there is no indication that there is actually a problem to begin with.

When one goes back and reads the original post, it boils down to that these organizations failed to meet the original poster’s internal timetable and expectations. It’s unclear if that internal timetable was shared with those organizations, or if it was backed up by the provision of donations or volunteer labor.

I mean, I guess KRM is guilty of poor leadership because they didn’t immediately act on the suggestion of a volunteer that the museum engage in a six figure restoration of an 0-8-0 that hadn’t seen service since Eisenhower was President and stored outside ever since.

At least one organization is steam-less through the fault of an outside party. The K&T 14 people got Wasatched.

Bottom line everyone wants the steam locomotive to run, but few people want to engage in the hard work to build an organization that has a firm foundation to be sustainable, so things like restoring a steam locomotive are possible. If that’s a “failure” then I guess a lot of organizations are guilty of poor leadership.

In some aspects, I would argue yes, in others, I'd argue no; I think fail is a strong word here. One of the biggest issues I've seen in steam locomotive restoration in Kentucky growing up there and in general is money. No money to restore. You have money? Maybe a restoration with multiple factors depending. In some aspects I think the organizations of the places you mention in Kentucky could have probably used some work. I also noticed right when L&N 152 went down, I didn't see any widespread campaigning or advertisement for donations until a couple years later. But you also have to consider that until they really took 152 apart and did the ultrasound and any other tests, you can't really know a donation goal. It doesn't look promising to people if you say "hey we need to do an overhaul to our steam engine. We don't have a list of what specifically needs overhauled and repaired beyond the cookie cutter requirements nor do we have an idea of what the total cost will be, but please donate." I wouldn't donate if I saw something along those lines either (not literally that phrasing but you get what I mean). Also consider what KRM is. Non-profit, located in New Haven, KY. Not knocking New Haven but if you've ever been there, the railway museum makes up probably 25-30% at least of the total town. They're competing with other huge, very well known organizations with large steam locomotives. Yes, 152 is only 1 of 3 remaining L&N steam locomotives, but that only means something to someone that likes the L&N. If I don't care about the L&N, I may not care as much about 152. Given their location, I think KRM is doing just fine with 152 and the progress they've made.

The issue I've personally experienced with KRM and BGRM was around 8-10 years ago. I was an equal distance from both places and went to both wanting to volunteer as a car host to begin with, and work my way up to learn how to work on rolling stock, then diesels, and maybe eventually learn some of the ins and outs of steam locomotive maintenance and restoration (specifically at KRM since BGRM doesn't roster a steamer). BGRM flat out told me they didn't need more volunteers, which is fine I guess, but I've never seen a museum turn down free labor. KRM allowed me to go to one of their car host classes, but when I mentioned I also wanted to eventually sit in on a few projects, either basic repair on rolling stock or just observe maintenance to diesel locomotives, I was plainly told no. I car hosted on and off through college but moved away later. If organizations have the attitude that tends to be more negative towards young people, in that sense, I would argue they've failed. However, KRM specifically seems to have significantly improved on this aspect, as I believe a group of younger volunteers worked a lot on the #11 cosmetic restoration and there's some work going on cosmetically for L&N #770. Also, young people have the unfortunate reputation (which ends up oftentimes being true) of lacking patience or focus for certain things. They want to come in and act like they know everything, rather than listening to older, wiser members of museums. If someone just acted like they wanted to come in and take over, I wouldn't give them the time of day either.



Was this within the last few years? I wasn't aware anyone ever really had any suggestions to restore the 2152 other than the common "oh yeah that would be a cool one to restore" phrasing. I fall into that category since I love seeing old L&N photos, but in reality you'd need a lot of dedication for that project. I can't imagine the mechanical shape it's in, probably looking a very steep six figure restoration at that. The photos I've seen online of the cosmetic work look pretty fantastic, so kudos to whomever did that. If it never runs again, I think most people would be satisfied that it looks good.

Back to the topic at hand, I wouldn't say any organization in Kentucky has specifically failed. Big South Fork Scenic couldn't have any way of knowing what Wasatch was doing. KRM has been pretty transparent in their fundraising for 152 and are making slow, but steady and secure progress. I'd rather see 152 take 15-20 years to overhaul over 2-4 years and break down after running for a year or two. Kentucky Steam has done a pretty good job as well. I don't know what 2716's status is, but I would assume they're making progress. I couldn't give my opinion on the RJC QJ. If they haven't even moved it yet, it's probably not a priority. They have to contract 2716 out to give it places to run for now, so I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing the 2008 run anytime soon.

BGRM doesn't really have a chance to be a "failure" at any steam restoration since they don't even own a steam locomotive. I will say I do like the idea you put forth of them getting the Reader #11, but I'm sure there's a reason they haven't inquired about it. Either they have and the city said no or they don't have the place to actually do the work. I don't believe BGRM has any indoor shops actually. Not having an enclosed space would make the work more tedious, especially with Kentucky weather.

Steam locomotive operation/restoration is not an issue that states think about. they have enough on their plate without worrying about "how many steam locos are operating in state x".

The real problem with KRM and BGRM is they're basically income streams for the people on their boards and alot of "shaving off the top" goes on at both. KRM has straightened out a little bit on this over the last couple of years because so much money was disappearing into the place people with the authority to start sticking their nose into what was going on there were starting to take notice and started asking questions.

BGRM just runs off anyone whose not part of the "inner circle" so they don't have anybody around to ask pesky questions. As such they barely have enough people to run trains one day a week and they barely do special events anymore as they don't have the man power. A steam locomotive restoration brings a lot of unwanted attention and a lot of pesky people who want to be around to help asking more pesky questions. So they'd have no interest in doing something like work on #11.

As for BSFSRY it's not so much shaving off the top as they want the place to be -just- popular enough to keep themselves employed without having to devote any time or energy for making the place any better or more popular. That's why every 5-7 years the place gets run down and the passenger numbers start dropping off they sucker somebody with more money than sense into an "operators" contract and wait till they make a bunch of capital investment and get the place cleaned back up before they unceremoniously boot the poor sucker out the door. I honestly don't think they were really ever fully interested in running steam they just managed to get handed the money to make it happen and then hired people that should have been more closely watched. They had plenty of opportunity to catch Rammasch at what he was doing it was just nobody cared enough to keep a close eye on him while he drained their money while bolting their locomotive together with carriage bolts from the ACE hardware down the road.

Kentucky Steam Corp is quite frankly the one bright spot and has accomplished more in the last couple of years than the three organizations above have done in the last decade. Hopefully they can keep it up and don't make the mistake of voting in board members who look at the train ride money as a way to supplement their retirement funds.

I don't post much, as you can already find a lot if you search my name on this site.

I was part of the team that brought steam to BGRM in the late 1980's. 0-6-0T #717, Porter 1947. That locomotive did run at BGRM. That team left the organization due to political infighting in the organization. The steam talent left the organization, and was never replaced.

I knew the steam team at Kentucky Central RY. They had their organizational problems, but the organization fell prey to a CSX mandated insurance program that was beyond KCRY financially. That was the end of that operation. Some of the KCRY steam team was from BGRM who had left BGRM. KRM offered to purchase the loco #11, but the management there would not sell it. Now it is "stuffed and mounted".

I took the GM job at Stearns in 1997 after the railroad had quit due to bankruptcy, and reorganized. I had fired Union #77 at Tombstone Junction a few weekends, and hated to see it cold, even if it needed a lot of work. (By the way, that loco is NOT a "small" 0-6-0.
It is nearly 100 tons.) One of the conditions of my hire was that I be allowed to restore and operate Union #77, and I was the one that picked the number #14 to assign it as a K&T loco. After much work on grants and funding and work began with disassembly, the management wanted to expedite the project and hired Scott Lindsey to manage it, and sidelined myself as project manager. While Scott did quality work, he managed to spend a lot of money, and the project failed financially. Several years later, Wasatch was hired, and you know the rest of the story. During this time, both with Scott Lindsey and John Rimmasch, there was local steam talent (several people) that eventually was sidelined by BSFSRY management. There was political infighting while I was employed there.

I can't speak for KRM, nor Kentucky Steam.

Bottom line is/was that there was available steam talent to tackle all of these projects that was not used by senior management of the organizations. As of this writing, I'm not aware of any director or board of BGRM nor BSFSRY that has any steam background, and thus no direct interest in moving forward with any steam program.

The local Kentucky steam talent that I was a part of is now "retired" and tired of all of it. Now we sit in our easy chairs and post on the Internet......

That’s a pretty serious allegation. Do you have actual evidence of the wrongdoing?

To clarify, whenever I say "Kentucky" I mean the organizations throughout the state collectively, not the state itself or the government. The government really has no interest in steam operations or the number of operable steam locomotives unless they're supplying money towards them.

To address the reply about organizations not fitting my agenda or timeline, I have neither. I enjoy chasing steam locomotives like any other railfan or preservationalist, and I've even had the opportunity to do some very light work on a restoration project, thought I'm FAR from being any sort of expert on the mechanical components of a restoration. However, even though it's nice to see the organizations succeed, especially the ones you make donations or contributions to, it's no skin off of my back if KRM, KY Steam, Big South Fork, etc., don't get their steam locomotives up and running. It's their money, their organization. I'll chase what's running and visit what's not running when I happen to be in an area. I also wasn't aware there was an actual request made at some point for the L&N 2152 to be returned to steam by a volunteer. I simply inquired at the time whenever I was there and had a rather rude response in my opinion. I was unfamiliar with the locomotive and was curious about it at the time. Back then it was still painted as Republic Steel Corporation #285, so I didn't know it was L&N heritage until further research.

I saw Mark Jordan's post, so I thought that I would make a comment or two.

First, sometimes there may be too much focus on the idea that steam makes a tourist railroad. There are very successful operations with steam, but you also have them with diesel. Yes, I've traveled the world to ride and photograph steam, but I've done the same for diesels. We are approaching 100 years of regular diesel operations, almost as long as we had regular steam operations (at least in the U.S.). For many, older diesels are a major attraction, more than steam.

I've been fortunate to operate a number of photo charters over the years featuring diesel locomotives (and some with steam). I did several with Mark (he was doing all he could with the operation) on the Kentucky & Tennessee where we operated freight trains behind the old Alco diesels. We ran them day and night and the photos were terrific. We even did a full series of photos in the tunnel and then in the locomotive shops as the weather had changed to freezing rain!

To me, the key is what is the focus, what is the goal, and what are the accomplishments of the organization. There have been groups that do a good job of restoring steam locomotives but can't find a place to operate them. There have been others who have restored diesels and had them operated on special trains across part of the country. I consider the second as the more successful since something was done with the restoration that was seen by many. Again, it gets back to what are the actual accomplishments for me.

Something else you have to consider for the BGRM and KRM specifically is what their goals and general ideals are in rail preservation. I'm not updated as to the BGRM's mission statement, but I know the KRM's revolves around preserving Kentucky rail history and educating visitors about said history. Sure, if you look at KRM from purely an operational steam locomotive standpoint, you may argue that they haven't done a good job. But the KRM is more than just steam. But if you want to look at them from a steam locomotive perspective first, they definitely haven't failed. You also can't just look and say they have x number of steam locomotives but only 1 runs, so they aren't doing a good job.

They have #152 under restoration. While some could argue that funding should have started sooner and the restoration is taking longer than it should, the fact is that it's still under restoration and visible progress is being made with evidence from the Crew 152 Facebook page. The L&N #2152 is also a very historic locomotive, being 1 of 3 survivors. If you look at pictures of the locomotive 6-7 years ago compared to today, it looks like a whole new locomotive and has finally been painted back into L&N colors and scheme. No, it doesn't run. Maybe it'll be restored after #152 someday, maybe it won't. If you want to see it run, I suggest you contact KY Steam, get advice and pointers from them, set up a solid plan and then reach out to KRM about how you want to go about funding a restoration of the locomotive where it could run alongside #152. If not, appreciate that the locomotive is preserved much better than it was previously.

Louisville Cement #11 is a narrow gauge steam locomotive, so it never had a chance to be restored to operation at KRM anyways. But it's a unique locomotive having served the Louisville area and makes a nice display piece in the parking lot. Compared to how it was sitting in pieces rusting on a flat car 6-7 years ago as well, it's a huge improvement and like 2152, is preserved much better. The 2716 speaks for itself. KRM was willing to lease out one of their most notable attractions in their museum. It was the biggest and first thing you saw when walking towards the rail line. Some museums wouldn't let a piece like that go. But KRM recognized the preparedness of KY Steam and allowed the locomotive leave for a restoration to operation, something than any volunteer there 10 years ago would have said would never happen.

There's also an 0-6-0 that I believe was ex-US Army #5002 that sat at the far back of the property towards New Hope. I'm not sure why the locomotive was never restored operationally or cosmetically (my guess is too small or just focused on 152), but it was actually sold and shipped to another owner a number of years ago. I believe it went out to Wisconsin after the restoration in PA did not go as planned. That's been about 7 or 8 years now, so I assume 5002 is out there running by now, or the restoration is nearing completion. I'll have to go back and research that tomorrow actually; I'm curious now.

They've cosmetically restored two steamers, sent two off for operational restoration, and are restoring 152 in house. I wouldn't call that a failure.

I visted BGRM once and was not impressed at all with their operation. This was back in 2017 or 18. I was on my way to Knoxville and happened to be passing through on a day BGRM was operating and with enough time to ride their train. The station and grounds looked pretty good and the small museum was interesting. The train slowly pulled out of the station and as we got out onto the main track I assumed we would increase speed, but we did not. We CRAWLED along and it was so noticeable that I opened the GPS app on my phone and clocked us doing a whopping 4 mph THE ENTIRE TRIP. Now this was an 80 plus degree day and the cars were very hot inside. There of course was no airflow because of the slow speed. As the trip dragged on everyone was getting rather annoyed at the death march we had just signed up for, and as expected, what started out as an enjoyable trip for families became an ordeal to be survived.

This left a permanent impression on my about BGRM. First, if their track is not good for running that train at up to 15 mph on, then it is not Class 1 track and they had no business running that train that day or any day. PERIOD. Secondly, how the volunteers and crew could be so utterly lacking in self awareness to put their paying visitors through such an ordeal and think they are doing a good job is astounding.

It was hands down the worst tourist railroad experience I have ever had, just because they thought running at 4 mph was a good idea. Maybe things have changed since then. I don't see me ever going back to find out.

It's not yet running - the restoration is still continuing, but the shops restoring it also have other priorities/work that they are working on as well. I'll let other parties more directly involved give a better answer - but I do have an interest to see that particular locomotive completed as well, so I've been keeping an eye on that restoration myself.

The last time I was there I chased their newly repainted ICG Geep, although it needed a bath. They ran slow, probably 10 mph or so. Perhaps they've done track work since your visit, as they appeared to be in decent shape. The issue BGRM has is lack of a good rail line or place to expand out to. The line is relatively short and unless Corman for whatever reason wanted them to run an excursion on their line, they have no where to go. They have the huge bridge at the end of the line that will never see a train cross it again. Compared to KRM where they have the potential one day for CSX to allow 2716 or 152 run back and forth on part of the Mainline Sub, assuming all protocol including PTC are in place.