Does anybody know where plans/drawings/linens can be bought, borrowed or copied for the Boston and Maine locomotive #3713 built by the Lima Locomotive Works? Myself and a few other guys are currently rebuilding it and it sure would make our job easier if we had a set of plans. Anything would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance

Bruce Mowbray

trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com

Don't know about this exact locomotive, but the Lima standards and practices book has been republished by Little River Press.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

I think the California State Railroad Museum has some Lima Locomotive Works drawings, etc.

Check its library's website.

Brian Norden

CSRM Library page
bnorden49@earthlink.net

> Does anybody know where
> plans/drawings/linens can be bought,
> borrowed or copied for the Boston and Maine
> locomotive #3713 built by the Lima
> Locomotive Works? Myself and a few other
> guys are currently rebuilding it and it sure
> would make our job easier if we had a set of
> plans. Anything would be greatly
> appreciated.
> Thanks in advance

> Bruce Mowbray
Try the Allen County Museum in Lima. It has a large collection of Lima Loco material. Jim Tighe, Wapak, OH.

justighe@bright.net

I have checked with both of these institutions on obtaining the material. The Allen County museum defers to the CSRM on matters like this. The CSRM said they may have the material, but need to rely on the archivists whom I believe are docents. They will not necessarily know all the information, or know what to obtain unless you know all there is to obtain. Much of the archives is off limits until it is catalogued, and until that item is catalogued, it can't be found.
A few from the B&M Historical Society are searching in the B&M archives in Lowell,MA and have found some, but not all of the info this engine needs.
Here is a problem that comes up from time to time where the actual stuff you need may exist, and is stored in a safe spot, but there is no one to look for the stuff, or wouldn't know the stuff when he saw it. How do we overcome this dilemma?

http://www.nps.gov/stea/

Are the archives at the CSRM open to visitors with a purpose such as ourselves at Steamtown? It would seem like we have a viable reason to use this stored wealth of information and we could have people that know what they are looking for do the actual looking. Perhaps a "road trip" is in order but it would be nice to know before hand if the plans really do exist.

Bruce

> Here is a problem that comes up from time to
> time where the actual stuff you need may
> exist, and is stored in a safe spot, but
> there is no one to look for the stuff, or
> wouldn't know the stuff when he saw it. How
> do we overcome this dilemma?


trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com

> Are the archives at the CSRM open to
> visitors with a purpose such as ourselves at
> Steamtown? It would seem like we have a
> viable reason to use this stored wealth of
> information and we could have people that
> know what they are looking for do the actual
> looking. Perhaps a "road trip" is
> in order but it would be nice to know before
> hand if the plans really do exist.

Bruce,

I recently did some minor research at CSRM for some early Shay material. My experience is that if you cannot give them the drawing number, or get the drawing number from the limited amount of reference material they have in the research room, they will not let you peruse the actual stacks. You have to purchase the print and wait a few months to see if it is the print you need. And the two ladies have very little humor about our frustrations with their rules.

That notwithstanding, I was pleased with the prints I got.

On Shay matters it is usually better to get help from Dan Ranger, who has the extensive dealer records that were at Hofius Steel in Seatle (Shay authorized dealer)from which you may get the drawing numbers you need; I do not know how to go about Class 1 railroad drawings, as some of those were not Lima OEM, but to railroad specification.

Steve

SZuidervee@aol.com

The problem of access to image archives is so bad that several large-scale collectors have recently advised against donating collections to public institutions (see the thread on the Yahoo group, rlhsgroup, starting about a month ago).

In my experience university libraries are the worst, closely followed by other government-run archives. Researchers are such that they require constant supervision, the manpower for which is uniformly nonexistent.

Still the librarians, who must be chosen partly on the basis of possessiveness, can be helped by us "amateurs." One group with good credentials for the Least Ability to Catalog Specialized Historical Collections award is professional librarians. Unfortunately, library higher-ups and the public employee unions are very reluctant to authorize even programs of regular volunteers.

Thus a substantial amount of the material that miraculously survives is, and will remain, off limits to researchers. I don't know what the devil to do.

johncb@u.washington.edu

> Thus a substantial amount of the material
> that miraculously survives is, and will
> remain, off limits to researchers. I don't
> know what the devil to do.

Whatever it takes, she's worth it. Here she is on what may have been her last run, November of 1956.


SJHussar@aol.com

> they may
> have the material, but need to rely on the
> archivists whom I believe are docents. They
> will not necessarily know all the
> information, or know what to obtain unless
> you know all there is to obtain. Much of the
> archives is off limits until it is
> catalogued, and until that item is
> catalogued, it can't be found.
>
This problem is not limited to CSRM. I have exactly the same frustration with the Milwaukee Public Library which has custody of the Milwaukee Road Archive. Until an item has been "processed", there is no way to get it, even if you know they almost certainly have it. And they're not amenable to being "helped" by knowledgeable members of the public conducting legitimate research on behalf of bona fide historical preservation organizations, either.

pnichol6@prodigy.net

> I recently did some minor research at CSRM
> for some early Shay material. My experience
> is that if you cannot give them the drawing
> number, or get the drawing number from the
> limited amount of reference material they
> have in the research room, they will not let
> you peruse the actual stacks. You have to
> purchase the print and wait a few months to
> see if it is the print you need. And the two
> ladies have very little humor about our
> frustrations with their rules.

The best luck I never had at CSRM was when they had an archivist named Lamb. He was also a railroad historian and it showed several times when I requested material and he brought out some other times that he could easily get a hold of. He has since gone on to the State Archives.

The ladies can be very nice and helpful, if you realize what they are and where they come from. They have learned their railroading at the library. I've been in the library many times when a museum visitor wonders up and the ladies have helped this person with his/her simple inquiry; I can tell that this is often the ump-eeth time the question has been asked, but they proceed to help the person.

I have long ago learned at many libraries, and archive and manuscript facilties you need to ask the correct question to get the right answer. The best friend is the collection guide and now many institutions have these online. By using the online quide I found a SP record book at CSRM that I never had looked at before and found the exact information I was wanting.

Also most of archive, etc. facilities do not allow anyone but staff into the stacks -- it is a call (request) and pull system.

Brian Norden

bnorden49@earthlink.net

The CSRM online index lists the following information about B&M 3713:

Boston and Maine. Road # 3713. CN 7625. Order # 1130. Shipping date: Dec. 1934. Rod 4-6-2
>> Index: 1130. Filed: Box 78
>> Side elevation drawing # 420 A 90. Filed: 101 / 8.2
>> Materials book 1130 Filed: Box 78
>> Tender index 1130 Filed: Box 78
>> Specification 1130 Filed: Box 100

Now I don't know how and what this is all means. I suspect that the index and tender index are for drawings. I would inquire of the library; maybe they can make a copy of these for a fee.

Brian Norden

bnorden49@earthlink.net

I hope you all realize that "bona fide" researchers are not all that they sometimes appear to be, and no library or archive staff person knows how to tell them from obsessive thieves who "have to have" what the institution is meant to protect. All it takes is one experience with the latter to explain the rules that keep you out of the stacks. At any well run library the new volunteer is always on probation until the staff is sure that they are not there to steal. As for items "I'm sure they have," if we don't know where it is how will you be able to find it? Most of us have material that has not been gone through and the contents of which are not known. It is rare to find a place where they are not behind on going through donations that often are very large. Getting 200,000 engineering drawings from a car building firm is great in one way, but it comes with the realization that it will be some years before all of that can be cataloged and accessable, and we just have to live with that. These things are just the reality we all have to live with, not just librarians trying to thwart researchers for sport.

rdgoldfede@aol.com

> I hope you all realize that "bona
> fide" researchers are not all that they
> sometimes appear to be

I would say that I am a bonafide researcher with a bonafide purpose. We are stuck in a time frame to get the 3713 rebuilt and running. To know that there is a source for plans, and, to have to wait for years knowing that they exist, can be very frustrating. I am following up on a couple of leads. I hope they will pan out.

Bruce Mowbray
PS. Great Pic Stephen

trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com

You are right on the money, Ron. Part of the dilemma is that our archival institutions are overworked, understaffed and underfunded. Without all of the elements in place, it takes a long time to make the backlog material accessible. This is a fundamental rule at most institutions. If folks are upset that material cannot be properly accessed, roll up your sleeves and consider volunteering at the institution to help inventory the material--make a positive difference. Security is also paramount and sometimes takes precedence depeneding on the situation at hand. The end goal is to benefit our users. If the material cannot be used, then there's no reason to preserve it.

K.R. Bell

> I hope you all realize that "bona
> fide" researchers are not all that they
> sometimes appear to be, and no library or
> archive staff person knows how to tell them
> from obsessive thieves who "have to
> have" what the institution is meant to
> protect. All it takes is one experience with
> the latter to explain the rules that keep
> you out of the stacks. At any well run
> library the new volunteer is always on
> probation until the staff is sure that they
> are not there to steal. As for items
> "I'm sure they have," if we don't
> know where it is how will you be able to
> find it? Most of us have material that has
> not been gone through and the contents of
> which are not known. It is rare to find a
> place where they are not behind on going
> through donations that often are very large.
> Getting 200,000 engineering drawings from a
> car building firm is great in one way, but
> it comes with the realization that it will
> be some years before all of that can be
> cataloged and accessable, and we just have
> to live with that. These things are just the
> reality we all have to live with, not just
> librarians trying to thwart researchers for
> sport.