Dear RYPNers;

If you and/or your local railroad uses hand signals, can you *please* tell me which ones?

Mike Lewis of the Heber was a fantastic instructor on hand signals, and the people down there are all great users, and I found them easy to understand. Distinct, full movements of hands/arms; easy to see from far, and impossible to confuse.

Unfortunately, the local organization uses what to me are lantern signals but with their hands, and sometimes I find even these hand signals confusing, as some people do not make distinct movements.

What does your group use? Are there really differences between hand and lantern signals? Are there any "mpg" videos of what are correct signals? Is this like language, where different dialects have sprung up?

Yours, truly confused;

John Stewart.


freewrl-1@rogers.com

These are the standard signals we use John....

Railroad Hand Signals

> Mike Lewis of the Heber was a fantastic
> instructor on hand signals, and the people
> down there are all great users, and I found
> them easy to understand. Distinct, full
> movements of hands/arms; easy to see from
> far, and impossible to confuse.

> Unfortunately, the local organization uses
> what to me are lantern signals but with
> their hands, and sometimes I find even these
> hand signals confusing, as some people do
> not make distinct movements.

The signals should be distinct.

The railroad rule books only show the lantern (or flag) signals. In the Western states the crews developed come-to-me, go-away-from-me, etc. hand signals for daytime use. The rule books allow for such other hand signals provided that all of the crew understand the meaning.

About 30 years ago a railfan engineer on the Santa Fe here in Southern California told me that his observation was that the daytime flag signals were used east of the Mississippi and the come-to-me type hand signals were used west of the Mississippi.

Brian Norden

bnorden49@earthlink.net

TVRM uses the AAR standard hand signals listed above, in addition to some local hand signals that are used by our crews (I don't know if anyone else uses them). When coupling cars, some men will indicate the distance to the coupling by ing their arms outstretched above their heads and moving the hands closer as the engine/cars get closer to allow the engineman to gage the distance remaining to the coupling. Others, like myself will simply give the appropriate hand signal motion and slow the rate of the handsignal as the equipment gets closer to the coupling. Some of our crews will also give the countdown to the coupling using local handsignals if they are riding the locomotive or can position themselves where they can be clearly seen by the engineman.

awalker2002@comcast.net

When that #$$%^%^&^$% bunch from Texas took over our RR, one of their yahoo Go Team instructors, with at least two years railroading under his belt, was explaining hand signals to our longtime train service workers, using the "come to me - go away from me" method. After putting up with his arrogant "you Yankees this and you Yankees that" comments for some time, someone finally spoke up and explained to him that we don't do it that way back east. He packed his bags and went back to you-all land soon after.

Though some one-legged old timers may disagree, I think hand signals are dangerous, and always use the radio when possible. No two people give the same signal and all are easily misinterpreted, which can be compounded by distance and weather conditions. They may be suitable in fair-weather, close-distance museum conditions, but in the real world of railroading (dark, rain, snow, etc..), they are best used only in emergencies.

Railroading is still plenty dangerous today, but when men stood atop jouncing boxcars passing signals to an engineer 40 cars away with flickering kerosene lanterns, I'm amazed that anyone lived to tell the tale.

ryarger@rypn.org

Too dangerous? I have never had a situation develop from using hand signals, but twice I have had radios give out while directing movements. It is always better to use hand signals when you are in sight distance. It is safe because if you dont understand the signal, you stop! If a hand radio doesn't transmit, how long would it be from the time you spoke into the non working radio until the engineer decided that he hasn't recieved any new instructions and should stop?

What is also dangerous about radios is the obsessions that the class 1s have with jamming the radio channels with worthless chatter, especially when you are trying to use radio signals on the road channel.

To each his own I guess.

jrowlands@neo.rr.com

I have been involved in some interesting regional interpretations as well. The east and west signals Brian refers to are pretty much as he explains in my experience, but there are other variations as well.

Clear and reliable hand signals have always seemed safer to me than radio. Not only for the reasons Rick has outlined, but since many of us are partly deaf in certain frequencies by my age, having worked on loud machinery for many years, hearing the radio over the noise of the locomotive presents challenges.

I have known many gentlemen from Texas as well as from the northeast,west and south. Many unpersonable people from each region as well. Am I alone in my belief that regional stereotyping has little to do with operating safety and in fact may be a nonproductive source of friction?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Clear and reliable hand signals have always
> seemed safer to me than radio. Not only for
> the reasons Rick has outlined, but since
> many of us are partly deaf in certain
> frequencies by my age, having worked on loud
> machinery for many years, hearing the radio
> over the noise of the locomotive presents
> challenges.

The only real experience I have had in the use of hand signals is line of sight, short (up to 25 cars) museum and car storage switching in just about any kind of weather. Locomotive and ground positions.

That said, I agree with Dave (getting old and lost most of the high end of hearing) and the thing I have to add is the non-locomotive user having the mike too close to their mouth and missing the transmit button because of gloves.

We just got rid of the western hand signals and now have to remember which way is true forward and reverse. This sounds dumb but it happens with a centercab and a wye. The lantern signal for forward ain't easy to see without a lantern and come to me or away from me is awful easy to see. The most awkward hand signal operation we ever had was bringing 15 cars around a curve, across a public crossing into the yard, this took three guys in a relay team ...radios make this operation much easier.

Radios make a lot of communication easier and in the right hands more precise but you still have to be able to do hand or lantern signals as a backup. As usual part of the secret is knowing your crew, their experience and how they operate.

By the way ... another mystery to me is why you aren't allowed to climb a ladder with an electic lantern in the crook of your arm. The rules insist that you keep it hooked around your thumb which to me is most awkward ????


lamontdc@adelphia.net

> If you and/or your local railroad uses hand
> signals, can you *please* tell me which
> ones?

> Mike Lewis of the Heber was a fantastic
> instructor on hand signals, and the people
> down there are all great users, and I found
> them easy to understand. Distinct, full
> movements of hands/arms; easy to see from
> far, and impossible to confuse.

> Unfortunately, the local organization uses
> what to me are lantern signals but with
> their hands, and sometimes I find even these
> hand signals confusing, as some people do
> not make distinct movements.

> What does your group use? Are there really
> differences between hand and lantern
> signals? Are there any "mpg"
> videos of what are correct signals? Is this
> like language, where different dialects have
> sprung up?

At SCRM, we use signals that are relative to the person giving the signal. That means the hand moved up and down means "move away from me" and the hand moved in a circle, pivoted at the elbow, means "come towards me." This tends to confuse people who have worked for the local freight railroads, because they use signals that are relative to the locomotive. Other than that, our signals are pretty clear -- although we've got one guy who insists on giving a "move away" signal with his hand vertical instead of horizontal, making it look like a stop signal.

An interesting topic we've BS'd about some is signals that aren't in the rulebook -- such as "turning in the air" or "time to eat." Radios have rendered such signals mostly obsolete, but we *do* occasionally conduct quick switching operations sans radios so we still use them once in a blue moon.

The South Carolina Railroad Museum
mconrad@compuzone.net

> I have been involved in some interesting
> regional interpretations as well. The east
> and west signals Brian refers to are pretty
> much as he explains in my experience, but
> there are other variations as well.

> Clear and reliable hand signals have always
> seemed safer to me than radio. Not only for
> the reasons Rick has outlined, but since
> many of us are partly deaf in certain
> frequencies by my age, having worked on loud
> machinery for many years, hearing the radio
> over the noise of the locomotive presents
> challenges.

> I have known many gentlemen from Texas as
> well as from the northeast,west and south.
> Many unpersonable people from each region as
> well. Am I alone in my belief that regional
> stereotyping has little to do with operating
> safety and in fact may be a nonproductive
> source of friction?

I'll agree most wholeheartedly with that last statement.

Your comments about deafness brings up a point. We've got an engineer who can't hear worth a darn, even with two hearing aids. I hate switching with him for that reason. When I have to use a radio, I repeat everything at least twice to make sure he understands. I use hand signals with him whenever possible because I *know* he'll understand them.

Now the question -- should this individual even be in a locomotive cab, given his deafness? There's been much discussion among the members about this, especially lately as this individual's hearing is steadily deteriorating.

The South Carolina Railroad Museum
mconrad@compuzone.net

> Now the question -- should this individual
> even be in a locomotive cab, given his
> deafness? There's been much discussion among
> the members about this, especially lately as
> this individual's hearing is steadily
> deteriorating.

Do you a hearing test with qualifiers as part of your engineers certification ?? This is how you draw the line.

BTW: Since I lost the upper range of frequency response I no longer need hi-fi sound systems and for some strange reason higher pitched feminine type voices no longer register (not PC).


lamontdc@adelphia.net

Federal locomotive enginer certification regulations require that everyone pass a specific hearing test and retest every three years in order to posses a locomotive engineer's license and operate a locomotive. If this individual does not pass the test then the railroad must decide if it chooses to take on the pesonal risk and determine its own standards on whether or not the hearing of any individual who failed the Federal test has hearing that is sufficient for the individual railroad's needs. Most railroads and tourist operations will not take on this added liability. There are vision standards as well.

> Now the question -- should this individual
> even be in a locomotive cab, given his
> deafness? There's been much discussion among
> the members about this, especially lately as
> this individual's hearing is steadily
> deteriorating.

> At SCRM, we use signals that are relative to
> the person giving the signal. That means the
> hand moved up and down means "move away
> from me" and the hand moved in a
> circle, pivoted at the elbow, means
> "come towards me." This tends to
> confuse people who have worked for the local
> freight railroads, because they use signals
> that are relative to the locomotive. Other
> than that, our signals are pretty clear --
> although we've got one guy who insists on
> giving a "move away" signal with
> his hand vertical instead of horizontal,
> making it look like a stop signal.

> An interesting topic we've BS'd about some
> is signals that aren't in the rulebook --
> such as "turning in the air" or
> "time to eat." Radios have
> rendered such signals mostly obsolete, but
> we *do* occasionally conduct quick switching
> operations sans radios so we still use them
> once in a blue moon.
We use hand signals at the Oklahoma Railway Museum, (ORM)and used them this past weekend. We use the BNSF hand signals from their chart. They are included in the rules class each spring and reviewed at the safety briefing prior to operations. Safety is our most important rule. Of course our trains are short, 3 to 5 cars and we use the hand signals when making up our train and air test. We also have radios that we use.

drakerice@ompa.com

> Ever been "stepped on" by another person on your frequency when you are making a move in close clearances? How about a dead battery? Work with an inexperienced person who says "ok east 99" when they mean west?

Its not that simple. Radios are a great tool, but in some cases are inferior to hand signals.

Don't forget, if your on a recorder-that can burn you.

Unless you don't have clear vision- use hand signals!

superheater@rrmail.com

Some smaller railroads suspect that they are the
training grounds for larger, better paying lines.
Thus, there is an incentive to establish rules
(including hand and radio signals) that are
different from larger connections, so your
employees don't learn how to work elsewhere.
TYBR uses both radio and hand signals. The hand
signals are based on Reading Company rules, with
some influence from ConRail and U.S. Army
rulebooks, when their words were clearer. Some
crews do make up their own private signals, which
are confusuing when working with other crews who
only know what's in the rulebook! Management
thinks that radio is easier for new employees to
learn.

104577.651@compuserve.com