PM 1225's outing to Cadillac earlier this month was truly a pleasant experience. But it wasn't until I arrived in Owosso the evening before the trip and ran into an old friend, Don Maxwell of the CP Huntington NRHS group in WVA that sponsors the New River Train each year, that I understood why folks should care about this outing: According to Don this was 1225's longest outing since her appearance at the NRHS convention in Huntington in 1991. That says more than I'd seen in any of the marketing for the trip. While 1225 has made some regular outings in Michigan, this one was special and a lot of folks missed it.

Next time she runs, go out there and support her. That is one beautiful Lima product. Jim

Wrinnbo@aol.com

Note that number of "big steam" trips last year and this year have come nowhere near to being full, with some running half empty or even worse. This seems to happen to the locos that seldom get out on the main as well as to the "old faithful" engines.

Seems to me the operation of the 1225 at all is reason enough for it to be a "special" event.

With all the tearing of hair, gnashing of teeth, rending of garments and general wailing seen on this forum as well as others about the supposed total lack of mainline steam operations, one has to wonder if some of the more astute operators are right when they say that the market for trips just isn't there any more?

IMO, there seems to be no lack of "demand" to see these things run, or to restore and run even more of them, but a severe shortage of people actually willing to do what's necessary to keep them running. i.e. buying tickets.

(it's not necessary for those who do buy tickets to start a flame war)

We have met the enemy, and it looks like it might be us as much as any other factor.

Mr. Real,

You hammered at the problem, but only bent the nail.

Yes, not enough buffs turn out to fund all our great ideas...

... but, there aren't enough buffs. Period.

The marketing failure I see over and over isn't the act of failing to reach buffs; it is act of even making the effort the reach buffs.

Simply put, the marketing needs to be directed outside our closed community if we are to draw the audience that can fund our avocation.

You could run a full-house by marketing to everyone EXCEPT buffs, but you can't have a full house with any regularity by marketing PRIMARILY to buffs.

I'd suggest a 20/80 mix. Spend 20% of your dollars/effort on buffs and rest on the outside world.

Just my two cents,

Rob

> IMO, there seems to be no lack of
> "demand" to see these things run,
> or to restore and run even more of them, but
> a severe shortage of people actually willing
> to do what's necessary to keep them running.
> i.e. buying tickets.

> (it's not necessary for those who do buy
> tickets to start a flame war)

> We have met the enemy, and it looks like it
> might be us as much as any other factor.


rdavis@rypn.org

There were plenty of buffs on/around the 1225 trips, including the regular bunch who may have made more money for Exxon, Maxell, and Kodak than the trip operators.

My point about the length of the trip, the very hospitible environs of Cadillac, Mi, and the wonderful weather were pointing to the fact that this particular trip would have been a tremendous outing for the non-buff.

In Michigan that weekend; this trip competed with the Nascar race in Brooklyn, MI; the Buckley Steam tractor show (long time well established and growing), and all of the regular summer boating/lake stuff that people do in Michigan. And I believe it is difficult to find a formula for a relative newcomer to the business to reach their market with limited bucks available for advertising. Notices in Trains and flyers in hobby shops are not going to fill these trains.

Steve Zuiderveen

> Mr. Real,

> You hammered at the problem, but only bent
> the nail.

> Yes, not enough buffs turn out to fund all
> our great ideas...

> ... but, there aren't enough buffs. Period.

> The marketing failure I see over and over
> isn't the act of failing to reach buffs; it
> is act of even making the effort the reach
> buffs.

> Simply put, the marketing needs to be
> directed outside our closed community if we
> are to draw the audience that can fund our
> avocation.

> You could run a full-house by marketing to
> everyone EXCEPT buffs, but you can't have a
> full house with any regularity by marketing
> PRIMARILY to buffs.

> I'd suggest a 20/80 mix. Spend 20% of your
> dollars/effort on buffs and rest on the
> outside world.

> Just my two cents,

> Rob


Lake Central Rail Tours
SZuidervee@aol.com

> I'd suggest a 20/80 mix. Spend 20% of your
> dollars/effort on buffs and rest on the
> outside world.

> Just my two cents,

> Rob

Good two cents worth and pretty valid. It's surprising to me to see how many postings show up on other boards where the "younger" fans are not that interested in steam.

1. I never saw one in service so I ain't interested.
2. I like to chase 'em but it ain't worth a ticket.

Wondering how they do it in England ...SUPPORT, SUPPORT, SUPPORT ...wonder what it takes ????

lamontdc@adelphia.net

Your both correct in most ways and now is the time to change our approach. There absolutely needs to be no marketing money or time waisted on railfans.Why...?

A. Because boards such as this, self promote a trip for big steam fans. Fans know when an engine is running and choose to participate or not

B. To base your ridership figures on an 80/20 split would be very generous in favor of the operator. Further more I would estamate that ridership by railfans is barely 10 %.

C. The hobby culture for the last 30 years has been one to promote non-participation by railfans in favor of chasing.

No Chasing / Rider Flame Wars are to be started here.

But the facts stand for themselves. I was brought up chasing , I love to chase and to see it running from the ground, I was brought up doing it as many others in my generation. The previous generation was around when the costs of a trip were not that high and the liability for operators not so great. This is not the case any more. The hard core railfans think they have some right to see big steam rebuilt and run for their pleasure for free.This is a systemic problem that needs to be addressed and the awareness and change in culture attitudes changed to make up the widening gap in funding for such operations.

Case in point I visited an open house recently at a museum. I witnessed three different Railfan / Model railroaders that were more than just casual enthusiasts. All asked the usual questions..

Why aren't you done yet , I thought it was supposed to run this year?

When IS it going to be finished?

Where are you going to run it and when might that be ?

What I found disheartening was that all three were on their way to chase 1225 all three knew that the matching grant was such that for every dollar the gant would match 4. And in the space of the hour that I was there for the FREE open house I saw 4 local families drop in 30.00 to 40.00 dollars and the three railfans who were most curious as to when it would run 0.00 !

This clearly states that as operators we absolutely need to change our marketing. Run these trips as a business not a hobby and do business in the modern world. We need to completely gear towards common folks that would like an outing. It used to be that ridership said they wanted to ride because it was like when they were kids. They are gone now or dropped off of AARP's list. And the new generations barely have Amtrak and it's not like they use that either. Why is it that Tall Ships festival in Chicago can draw almost a milliion people and sell upwards of 250,000 tickets at 25.00 a piece just to look at ships tied to a pier. Not that I'm knocking it, I think it was cool, but why can't we do that. Why are we languishing in obscurity instead of trying to get backing for such events. These were boats from Finnland and Netherlands.

Things Operators need to do.

Get some political and regional contacts and start building relationships
Start Co-oping with travel agencies to promote our trips
Offer things to do besides just riding the train ( river tours, casino package , etc..)
Go places that are not just a Y in the middle of a feild to turn and service the locomotive
Shorter runs in conjunction with a civic festivals
Survey the clientel to determine what their expectations were / are and if they were met.
We need to protect , solidify and enforce our sources of income, our image and our revenue generating sources AND REALLY CONCENTRATE ON PUBLIC RELATIONS .
We need to start cooperating between groups, pooling resources.
Run TV commercials with subliminal to send 10.00 to my big steam sponsorship fund where after my fee it will be fairly and equitably dispersed amongsts all operators
AND LASTLY Do some REAL Marketing surveys to detrmine more focused promotions and give up on railfans for continued support.

AAAAAAAAGHGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! I just woke up from this dream about a Big Steam Utopia.... What was I writing about?

S.A. Worthington

> You hammered at the problem, but only bent
> the nail.
> Yes, not enough buffs turn out to fund all
> our great ideas...
> ... but, there aren't enough buffs. Period.

That's the point. Hardly a day goes by that you can't find some impassioned plea to save this or restore that or organize yet another museum/junkyard, based almost solely on the premise that "the fans will flock to it." That's baloney, and it's one reason why meager assets get spread thinly over so many projects, so few of which have a prayer of having long-term, sustainable success.

> The marketing failure I see over and over
> isn't the act of failing to reach buffs; it
> is act of even making the effort the reach
> buffs.
> Simply put, the marketing needs to be
> directed outside our closed community if we
> are to draw the audience that can fund our
> avocation.
> You could run a full-house by marketing to
> everyone EXCEPT buffs, but you can't have a
> full house with any regularity by marketing
> PRIMARILY to buffs.

Absolutely. 90/10 would be even better. Our "closed community" is far smaller than many of us realize. That, and being aware that the 90% are not sitting on the edge of their seats, staring at the computer or watching the mailbox for the next trip announcement. For the most part, they have lives, which too many buffs don't.

Some of it is as simple as not scheduling it when it conflicts with another event that is going to vastly outdraw anything you try to do with a locomotive or train (such as a nearby NASCAR race or an airshow or boat race or whatever) unless you can tie into it and get marketing support.

Personally, I think we are long past the point where these things can stand successfully on their merits as merely being old, historic, romantic, nostalgic, etc. And tieing into the "history" of insignificant and/or long-gone and/or long-gone railroads, facilities, etc. isn't getting the job done, either.

I don't think the answers are simple, but I do think that continuing to do what has been done (with admittedly varying degrees of success ranging from spectacular to dismal) for the past 40+ years and expecting different results isn't going to get us there.

> The marketing failure I see over and over
> isn't the act of failing to reach buffs; it
> is act of even making the effort the reach
> buffs.

> Simply put, the marketing needs to be
> directed outside our closed community if we
> are to draw the audience that can fund our
> avocation.

> I'd suggest a 20/80 mix. Spend 20% of your
> dollars/effort on buffs and rest on the
> outside world.

Two points:

1. Amen. And word to the Realist on 80/20 being too generous.

2. "marketing to fans" seems to presuppose that fans read ONLY Trains and R&R and the like. I'm a fan and I read the local newspaper, watch local TV, etc. (I'm not proud of it, but I do.)

You reach the railfan community by targeting the masses.

My split? 99/01.

JAC

Amtrak Keystone Service Timetable

Some really good ideas above. We need to make what we do important to the public, or our mission will not outlive us.

ryarger@rypn.org

These points not only apply to mainline excursions but to the tourist operations as well. I'd like to see some seminar discussions on this topic at the upcoming TRAIN convention if anyone's listening.

G. Mark

aw90@comcast.net

Now that I'm officially a marketing man--at least that's what the piece of paper from Creighton says--I should start my own agency geared towards the railroad industry. It seems there's quite a market out there since this aspect is abused by many nonprofits and for-profits. In this day and age, when so many events are competing for a limited amount of disposable income and time marketing is a necessary weapon that should be a part of our arsenals. Anybody looking to be a client for my firm?

God Bless,
Gerald W. Kopiasz
Gerald Walter Marketing

> Your both correct in most ways and now is
> the time to change our approach. There
> absolutely needs to be no marketing money or
> time waisted on railfans.Why...?

> A. Because boards such as this, self promote
> a trip for big steam fans. Fans know when an
> engine is running and choose to participate
> or not

> B. To base your ridership figures on an
> 80/20 split would be very generous in favor
> of the operator. Further more I would
> estamate that ridership by railfans is
> barely 10 %.

> C. The hobby culture for the last 30 years
> has been one to promote non-participation by
> railfans in favor of chasing.

> No Chasing / Rider Flame Wars are to be
> started here.

> But the facts stand for themselves. I was
> brought up chasing , I love to chase and to
> see it running from the ground, I was
> brought up doing it as many others in my
> generation. The previous generation was
> around when the costs of a trip were not
> that high and the liability for operators
> not so great. This is not the case any more.
> The hard core railfans think they have some
> right to see big steam rebuilt and run for
> their pleasure for free.This is a systemic
> problem that needs to be addressed and the
> awareness and change in culture attitudes
> changed to make up the widening gap in
> funding for such operations.

> Case in point I visited an open house
> recently at a museum. I witnessed three
> different Railfan / Model railroaders that
> were more than just casual enthusiasts. All
> asked the usual questions..

> Why aren't you done yet , I thought it was
> supposed to run this year?

> When IS it going to be finished?

> Where are you going to run it and when might
> that be ?

> What I found disheartening was that all
> three were on their way to chase 1225 all
> three knew that the matching grant was such
> that for every dollar the gant would match
> 4. And in the space of the hour that I was
> there for the FREE open house I saw 4 local
> families drop in 30.00 to 40.00 dollars and
> the three railfans who were most curious as
> to when it would run 0.00 !

> This clearly states that as operators we
> absolutely need to change our marketing. Run
> these trips as a business not a hobby and do
> business in the modern world. We need to
> completely gear towards common folks that
> would like an outing. It used to be that
> ridership said they wanted to ride because
> it was like when they were kids. They are
> gone now or dropped off of AARP's list. And
> the new generations barely have Amtrak and
> it's not like they use that either. Why is
> it that Tall Ships festival in Chicago can
> draw almost a milliion people and sell
> upwards of 250,000 tickets at 25.00 a piece
> just to look at ships tied to a pier. Not
> that I'm knocking it, I think it was cool,
> but why can't we do that. Why are we
> languishing in obscurity instead of trying
> to get backing for such events. These were
> boats from Finnland and Netherlands.

> Things Operators need to do.

> Get some political and regional contacts and
> start building relationships
> Start Co-oping with travel agencies to
> promote our trips
> Offer things to do besides just riding the
> train ( river tours, casino package , etc..)
> Go places that are not just a Y in the
> middle of a feild to turn and service the
> locomotive
> Shorter runs in conjunction with a civic
> festivals
> Survey the clientel to determine what their
> expectations were / are and if they were
> met.
> We need to protect , solidify and enforce
> our sources of income, our image and our
> revenue generating sources AND REALLY
> CONCENTRATE ON PUBLIC RELATIONS .
> We need to start cooperating between groups,
> pooling resources.
> Run TV commercials with subliminal to send
> 10.00 to my big steam sponsorship fund where
> after my fee it will be fairly and equitably
> dispersed amongsts all operators
> AND LASTLY Do some REAL Marketing surveys to
> detrmine more focused promotions and give up
> on railfans for continued support.

> AAAAAAAAGHGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! I just woke up
> from this dream about a Big Steam Utopia....
> What was I writing about?

> S.A. Worthington


hrrhs@aol.com

> Two points:

> 1. Amen. And word to the Realist on 80/20
> being too generous.

> 2. "marketing to fans" seems to
> presuppose that fans read ONLY Trains and
> R&R and the like. I'm a fan and I read
> the local newspaper, watch local TV, etc.
> (I'm not proud of it, but I do.)

> You reach the railfan community by targeting
> the masses.

> My split? 99/01.

> JAC

Yep, need to go outside the normal channels to reach the masses. Otherwise your preaching to the choir.



superheater@rrmail.com

Yes, yes, yes, BUT you guys always forget the most important point....we spend too much time advertising to the railfans (and the people like ourselves) when in fact they are less than 1% of the market. Why advertise to railfans when they already know you exist and will come to ride anyway regardless if you advertise.

You must always focus on the general public. They are the bread and butter and make up the other 99% of your target audience. As far as I'm concerned railfans are a non-entity and a very vocal minority at best.

> Two points:

> 1. Amen. And word to the Realist on 80/20
> being too generous.

> 2. "marketing to fans" seems to
> presuppose that fans read ONLY Trains and
> R&R and the like. I'm a fan and I read
> the local newspaper, watch local TV, etc.
> (I'm not proud of it, but I do.)

> You reach the railfan community by targeting
> the masses.

> My split? 99/01.

> JAC

Hey, I predicted the demise of the steam field a long time ago but everyone thought I was crazy! The steam preservation thing peaked about eight years ago. The big steam generation is fading from the scene (1960s-early 1990s) and the diesel generation is now strong. Thomas may spark the interest of the youngin's but I don't see enough young people getting involved at rail museums to make them sustainable into the future. The weak will fall by the wayside and we'll be left with a few very strong museums and tourist lines. It's called survival of the fittest folks.

> Note that number of "big steam"
> trips last year and this year have come
> nowhere near to being full, with some
> running half empty or even worse. This seems
> to happen to the locos that seldom get out
> on the main as well as to the "old
> faithful" engines.

> Seems to me the operation of the 1225 at all
> is reason enough for it to be a
> "special" event.

> With all the tearing of hair, gnashing of
> teeth, rending of garments and general
> wailing seen on this forum as well as others
> about the supposed total lack of mainline
> steam operations, one has to wonder if some
> of the more astute operators are right when
> they say that the market for trips just
> isn't there any more?

> IMO, there seems to be no lack of
> "demand" to see these things run,
> or to restore and run even more of them, but
> a severe shortage of people actually willing
> to do what's necessary to keep them running.
> i.e. buying tickets.

> (it's not necessary for those who do buy
> tickets to start a flame war)

> We have met the enemy, and it looks like it
> might be us as much as any other factor.

> You must always focus on the general public.
> They are the bread and butter and make up
> the other 99% of your target audience. As
> far as I'm concerned railfans are a
> non-entity and a very vocal minority at
> best.

For the MA&PA tourist railroad with their dedicated "train set" make that 99-44/100%(so pure it floats!)general public. Maybe a click on a pass thru but there is nothing there for the "foamer". The few "fans" that are interested are already members. Again I have to say, become an intimate member of the area you serve and you will generate some business, make it interesting to local history and events and the 'rents will bring johnny and janie to ride the train.


lamontdc@adelphia.net