Aarne Frobom mentioned the 148 is his responce to another one of my posts, so I thought that since I am a native of Traverse City, I thought I would give an "up-date" of the 148 from the time she arrived.
The ex-FEC #148 was brought to Traverse City, Michigan in 1994. She was going to be restored in the engine shed in the remains of the Traverse City rail yard and be ready to pull a dinner train in 1995. The original plan was to have a round trip between Traverse City and Interlochen (they had the rights to re-lay 3 miles of track to reach Interlochen). (to a 10-year-old kid, this was great!)
So the engine was pulled into the engine house, and not much was said for a couple of years. (The Grand Traverse Dinner Train started operations in 1996 and ran to Williamsburg in the west for lunch and to Walton Junction in the south for dinner. This is a diesel train, not steam)Around 1997, then engine was pulled out of the engine house and stored outside. It appeared that nothing had been done to her. She was put out on the abandoned ex-main line spur that used to go throught Traverse City and go north to Northport.
Work on restoring her did not start until 2000. She was then moved onto another siding, and men went to work on her. They removed the tubes and did an ultrasound on the boiler. Some places were 0.312" thick while other places got as thin as 0.192" thick! Part of the Mudring had been removed and a new part had been tack-welded into place, but that would have to be replaced due to new boiler codes since the last repair work had been completed. Most of the bottom of the barrel would have to be replaced and the smokebox would multiple repairs to replace thin/rotted metal. They said it would be less expensive in the long run to get an new boiler and smokebox.
The pistons and valves were removed. The piston rings on the valves had been lined up so splits of both rings were perfectly lined up, and the valve liners had a depression of about 0.125" where the split of the rings were. (Due to water collecting there I think) And there was a lot of junk/waste in the exhaust ports also.
The tires would have to be re-machined and/or be replaced. Apparently when she was brought up here, the engineer of the diesel had the brakes applied on the steamer to keep her from bouncing into the diesel, and the friction caused by the breaks caused the tires on the drivers to expand and slide on the cast wheel center.
Also they said that it would be best if a new frame could be made as this one was crystalizing. They could use this frame, but sooner or later it would need to be replaced.
Here is work that I believe was completed.
They ground off all the zinc covering on the driving rods. The power reverse was rebuilt. I think the tender tank is now water tight as well as the oil tank. They have I think at least 2 working injectors in storage in T.C. as well as many valves and other pipe fittings and a steam generator.
Unfortunatly the restoration work stopped in 2001. There had been a few fundraisers in T.C. but I do not think that amounted to much. So unfortunatly, she is still sitting there.
Here is a website of an article that was in the Grand Traverse Herald on July 12, 2000.
http://www.record-eagle.com/herald/2000/12train.htm


jsfrost@mtu.edu

> Aarne Frobom mentioned the 148 is his
> responce to another one of my posts, so I
> thought that since I am a native of Traverse
> City, I thought I would give an
> "up-date" of the 148 from the time
> she arrived.
> The ex-FEC #148 was brought to Traverse
> City, Michigan in 1994. She was going to be
> restored in the engine shed in the remains
> of the Traverse City rail yard and be ready
> to pull a dinner train in 1995. The original
> plan was to have a round trip between
> Traverse City and Interlochen (they had the
> rights to re-lay 3 miles of track to reach
> Interlochen). (to a 10-year-old kid, this
> was great!)
> So the engine was pulled into the engine
> house, and not much was said for a couple of
> years. (The Grand Traverse Dinner Train
> started operations in 1996 and ran to
> Williamsburg in the west for lunch and to
> Walton Junction in the south for dinner.
> This is a diesel train, not steam)Around
> 1997, then engine was pulled out of the
> engine house and stored outside. It appeared
> that nothing had been done to her. She was
> put out on the abandoned ex-main line spur
> that used to go throught Traverse City and
> go north to Northport.
> Work on restoring her did not start until
> 2000. She was then moved onto another
> siding, and men went to work on her. They
> removed the tubes and did an ultrasound on
> the boiler. Some places were 0.312"
> thick while other places got as thin as
> 0.192" thick! Part of the Mudring had
> been removed and a new part had been
> tack-welded into place, but that would have
> to be replaced due to new boiler codes since
> the last repair work had been completed.
> Most of the bottom of the barrel would have
> to be replaced and the smokebox would
> multiple repairs to replace thin/rotted
> metal. They said it would be less expensive
> in the long run to get an new boiler and
> smokebox.
> The pistons and valves were removed. The
> piston rings on the valves had been lined up
> so splits of both rings were perfectly lined
> up, and the valve liners had a depression of
> about 0.125" where the split of the
> rings were. (Due to water collecting there I
> think) And there was a lot of junk/waste in
> the exhaust ports also.
> The tires would have to be re-machined
> and/or be replaced. Apparently when she was
> brought up here, the engineer of the diesel
> had the brakes applied on the steamer to
> keep her from bouncing into the diesel, and
> the friction caused by the breaks caused the
> tires on the drivers to expand and slide on
> the cast wheel center.
> Also they said that it would be best if a
> new frame could be made as this one was
> crystalizing. They could use this frame, but
> sooner or later it would need to be
> replaced.
> Here is work that I believe was completed.
> They ground off all the zinc covering on the
> driving rods. The power reverse was rebuilt.
> I think the tender tank is now water tight
> as well as the oil tank. They have I think
> at least 2 working injectors in storage in
> T.C. as well as many valves and other pipe
> fittings and a steam generator.
> Unfortunatly the restoration work stopped in
> 2001. There had been a few fundraisers in
> T.C. but I do not think that amounted to
> much. So unfortunatly, she is still sitting
> there.
> Here is a website of an article that was in
> the Grand Traverse Herald on July 12, 2000.
>
> http://www.record-eagle.com/herald/2000/12train.htm
It is ashame,,,tha this fine Loco,,has not seen much work,,,,When she was at Essex.Ct she did look about the same..............
It is too bad that this fine loco,,could not be restored,,,if the money,,and help could be there,,,What is her furture????????????Pat


cprh1b@concast.net

Thanks for the update!

A new frame and a new boiler? Reminds me of the old story about the man who replaced the head of the axe one year and the handle the next. Was it still the same axe?

I do wish the best of luck to the #148, but seems like a huge amount of work.

-Alan Levy

alanl759@aol.com

1. Crystallization is NOT a defect when associated with metals and again we see it as a major fault listed with this locomotive frame.
2. Is it fatigue failure, porous parts of the casting, poor design, dirty steel, grain boundary corrosion, or steel chemistry (whole nuther world)? ...boilers are generally made out of "boiler" steel so the steam guys are very familiar with the properties, but what the heck did they make the frame out of and what is the real problem?


lamontdc@adelphia.net

I would be interested in knowing who made the diagnosis of crystallization on what basis. I am very familiar with the remaining other examples of this class, and to my understanding it has never popped up otherwise.

Frames are of forged steel, cylinders and saddle cast iron. My ALCO standards book isn't handy so I can't be more specific about grades of either.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> I would be interested in knowing who made
> the diagnosis of crystallization on what
> basis. I am very familiar with the remaining
> other examples of this class, and to my
> understanding it has never popped up
> otherwise.

I was getting ready to ask the same question, given my familiarity with a well known sister of 148...

Southeastern Railway Museum

gapower97@yahoo.com

The reason I said the frame was crystalied is because that is what was told to me. (I thought that steel is in a crystalied state when it is a solid, but I did not feel it would be correct for me to ask about it since I was 17 at the time and the crew had been working on steam engines for longer than I have been alive)
They said that when the frame was cast, there was too much "sludge" in the molton metal and it did not cool properly and that was causing weak spots in the frame.
That is what I was told, but do not know how accurate that is.

jsfrost@mtu.edu

Not picking on you, I am sure you were told just that. Slag inclusions within the cast portions of the frame are possible, but any critical structural weaknesses resulting theoretically would have manifested themselves during the years of intensive heavy service with FEC, rather than waiting.

I was told many years ago that the estimate for restoration by the dinner train was well under 100k including moving the locomotive to Michigan from CT. That didn't add up then assuming my information was correct.

If any truly qualified metallurgical testing was done it would be enlightening to find out about it. Crystallized frames have not proven themselves a problem even on older power so far. Most interesting.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

I know that you are not picking on me, and I would like to be corrected if what I said was not correct. So thank you.
So why would it be a concern now? Could it because they know about it and it could come back to haunt them if the frame did break in the future?

jsfrost@mtu.edu

Your additional information adds to the database. When you are casting anything you have three chances to introduce dirt, crap and corruption into the casting. The first is in the melting phase, insufficent slag, stirring and time leave trapped tramp micro-junk in the liquid metal. The second is in the pouring where you actually get some of the slag into the casting by not having enough prime stock in the ladle ...this is washed down into the casting and gets stuck in odd corners as it attempts to float out during solidification. The third chance is a poorly tamped sand mold that allows the molten metal to washout the sand and mix it in the matrix. The entrapped junk leads to zones of weakness that can lower the fatigue life of the frame. Usually the trapped junk is visible in a fracture or leaves sand streaks during machining or reacts with the flame of an acetylene torch during burning.

Another source of internal defects in a casting is porosity and cracking caused by a lack of feed metal during casting. As the metal solidifies it shrinks requiring liquid metal to be added. This is accomplished by adding "risers" which are reservoirs located at critical points in the mold to allow feedmetal to flow into the casting during solidification. When you are pouring the casting, you keep pouring filling the mold cavity and the risers that are located on the upper side of the mold.

Any of the above defects will show up in either ultrasonic or X-ray NDT. Once you have determined the extent of the damage and if it worth repairing, you can "scarf" out the affected areas and reweld. One of the things that has been forgotten as a good source of repair on any casting is the use of the thermite process to replace large areas of castings that have proven defective or missing ... this process was in use during the early part of the century for locomotive frame and cylinder castings. The integrity and usefulness of this process has proven itself in the large number of welded rail joints done as a matter of routine, every day.

One of the few things in life that I can guarantee 100% is that the frame and cylinders of every steam locomotive in the world is crystallized!

lamontdc@adelphia.net

I heard about the frame crystalization on the 148 from a "nameless" boiler repairman from a small New England state. He had just done a mechanical survey, (about '96 or'97, after it was sold through Barnhart,) of the engine and told us that it needed MUCH barrel work and that the frame was "crystalized" and would break like glass if placed in service. He indicated that he thought it would be cheaper to build a replica.

We thought that it would be prudent to place him in a nut house.

When it comes to metal, Well there's probally no one on this board that knows as much about metal as GE13031 knows about it. And then some! IF HE SAYS IT, IT"S GOSPElL!!!Trust me, he know's his S@#T and then some.

irss@eriecoast.com

Just as I feared. I nominate GE to do some real testing on the "glass" frame.

Just for grins, has anybody credible done a survey on the old girl?

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

...If you look at ancient (early 1900s) ICC and AAR reports you will find crystallization listed as a cause of failure. It was not until later that folks learned that this was a physical characteristic of a "brittle" fracture ...the effect not the cause. Fractures are divided into two types, ductile and brittle and many fractures show both types. In the case of a fatigue failure, a part such as a cast truck frame starts to crack, but the cracked area can still support the load, the crack works its way in until the load cannot be supported by the remaining area and the frame fails. if you look at the fracture you will see a "smeary" portion near the surface and a "crystallized" portion the rest of the way. The ductile portion of the fracture will have rust and/or corrosion in it from being exposed to the elements while the brittle portion will be clean and shiny.
In the case of a traumatic failure where the forces acting on a piece exceed the yield strength of the piece there is a slight give and then a sudden fracture. In this case you will see a very small portion of ductile fracture and a large portion of brittle fracture, generally clean with no rust or corrosion in the fracture.
When something does break the clues are there to tell why it broke and give you a better idea of what it will take to repair or replace it, or if you had better look at another option.

lamontdc@adelphia.net

ok, I gave the Traverse City side of her story, but does anybody know how she ended up at the Black River and Western? How much did she run? and why was she pulled from service?
Thanks,
Jeff

jsfrost@mtu.edu