A little political sand on the rails has put Steamtown back in the excursion business (at least on the Lackawanna County-owned trackage) for this year.

Rob

http://www.scrantontimes.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=

Good news for once!

Steamtown is probably my personal favorite steam experience (UP's been too far away so far and I'll be trying out OC this summer).

- Authentic, gritty location
- Authentic engines
- Authentic speeds (well, close :)
- Authentic COACHES (sooooo rare it's not even funny)

I hope they find a way to get this resolved long-term. 100 million dollars of liability? Is that in case the entire train plunges off a ravine all the way into hell and is never seen again?

JPS

> A little political sand on the rails has put
> Steamtown back in the excursion business (at
> least on the Lackawanna County-owned
> trackage) for this year.

> Rob


ironandsteam@msn.com

> A little political sand on the rails <

Great news! Thanks for the prompt post.

Politics rules. It can even trump the powerful laws of economics and the marketplace!

(I am resisting saying something like, "See, I told.......")

Now, the questions to ask are --
(1.) How did this REALLY happen?
(2.) Who got to whom?
(3.) How were the economic impact arguments crafted?
(4.) What can railroad preservationists learn from this case?

And the Biggie ---

(5.) Is there a strategic fix in all of this?



amiller@rtms-movietrains.com

The following caught my attention.

"Steamtown, which is a National Park Service site, paid about $85,000 in premiums for $25 million worth of liability coverage in 2003, according to Steamtown records."

and.....

"About 127,000 people visited the Steamtown train site in 2003, with about 4,000 of them riding the train excursions."

Are these numbers right? Only 4,000 excursion riders? This number seems like it is way low. If this it a real number it wont be long before someone says; "we are paying $21.25 in insurance per rider and only 3% of the visitors ride (care about) the excursion. These excursions are just a waste of blah blah blah." And I am sure everyone knows the rest of thought process.

Tom Gears

> The following caught my attention.

> "Steamtown, which is a National Park
> Service site, paid about $85,000 in premiums
> for $25 million worth of liability coverage
> in 2003, according to Steamtown
> records."

> and.....

> "About 127,000 people visited the
> Steamtown train site in 2003, with about
> 4,000 of them riding the train
> excursions."

> Are these numbers right? Only 4,000
> excursion riders? This number seems like it
> is way low. If this it a real number it wont
> be long before someone says; "we are
> paying $21.25 in insurance per rider and
> only 3% of the visitors ride (care about)
> the excursion. These excursions are just a
> waste of blah blah blah." And I am sure
> everyone knows the rest of thought process.

> Tom Gears

Tom, doesn't sound right at all- there had to be at least 1000 riding the Water Gap trips-and they had a minumum of 2 trips every weekend for 5 months, so say 60 other trips, there would average only 50 per trip. There were some lousy days last year, but there were a few warm sunny days that had trips with ridership in the 200's.

As for the visitation, I'm pretty sure thats an estimate and includes those that haven't paid and the school groups that (used to) get in for like a buck a head. Quite frankly, I think 127,000 is to high.

You have to notice such figures mean that they are calculating explicit marginal costs for the excursion. More on that later.

The following is from the nps website:

Total Recreation Visits for FY 2003- 117,994

So obviously, the article is wrong on at least one figure.



superheater@rrmail.com

If this it a real number it wont
> be long before someone says; "we are
> paying $21.25 in insurance per rider and
> only 3% of the visitors ride (care about)
> the excursion. These excursions are just a
> waste of blah blah blah."

Seems like I've heard such justification before when a certain political party tries annually to kill Amtrak. If the Steamtown ridership figures are wrong, it would probably be good for someone to correct them in the media before the uproar starts.

> Tom, doesn't sound right at all- there had
> to be at least 1000 riding the Water Gap
> trips-and they had a minumum of 2 trips
> every weekend for 5 months, so say 60 other
> trips, there would average only 50 per trip.
> There were some lousy days last year, but
> there were a few warm sunny days that had
> trips with ridership in the 200's.

> As for the visitation, I'm pretty sure thats
> an estimate and includes those that haven't
> paid and the school groups that (used to)
> get in for like a buck a head. Quite
> frankly, I think 127,000 is to high.

> You have to notice such figures mean that
> they are calculating explicit marginal costs
> for the excursion. More on that later.

> The following is from the nps website:

> Total Recreation Visits for FY 2003- 117,994

> So obviously, the article is wrong on at
> least one figure.


ryarger@rypn.org

(1.) Never let the facts get in the way of a good story/headline/etc.

(2.) If it's in print, it must be the truth.

(3.) If there is an error of fact or analyses, refer to Rule 2.

amiller@rtms-movietrains.com

> Seems like I've heard such justification
> before when a certain political party tries
> annually to kill Amtrak. If the Steamtown
> ridership figures are wrong, it would
> probably be good for someone to correct them
> in the media before the uproar starts.

From the Steamtown NHS website (under NEWS--the economic impact of Steamtown), the 2002 figure shown for excursion riders is 28,869. I read someplace--but can't put my finger on it right now--that 2003 was in the 25,000 range. I hate to admit it, but these figures rival Steamtown's WORST ridership years in Vermont--and there wasn't a $60+ million museum with a $5 million annual budget to back it, either.

Let's be happy that Rep. Paul Kanjorski has gotten the excursions back on track for this year, and is supporting the live steam concept. It's important to remember, though, that Steamtown NHS will be operating ONLY 30 excursions total this year (vs 144 or so last year), so don't be suprised if this year's ridership is really dismal.

Steamtown is indeed again at a crossroads. This year may well be the one that decides whether a long-standing traditon of mainline steam excursions at Steamtown carries on for the future or Steamtown becomes another "stuffed and mounted" exhibit. I wish I had the answer to what it will take to fill all available seats each trip. Any ideas?


fred.gracebailey@earthlink.net

>I wish I had the answer to what it will take to >fill all available seats each trip. Any ideas?

Is it me, or is Steamtown's advertising somewhere between slim and non-existant? Tiny ads in Trains Magazine aren't enough. Nor is a website that, even after a dozen visits, I still get confused in sometimes. They have "general" brochures in the PA area, but I don't think they always have the excursion schedules listed. Corrections welcomed.

It certainly isn't any deficiency in the excursion, itself! The open window coaches alone give it an advantage over most comparable "mainline" trips.

Again, maybe it's me, but for some reason the railfan community itself doesn't seem to be in love with Steamtown. As wonderful as the UP trips are, and the 614 trips were a few years ago, I can't understand why there's SO MUCH more buzz about those types of trips than, say, the Water Gap trips of last year. I enjoyed them more than I can describe, yet had to really search the web to see much mention of them . . . and even that was mostly after the infamous derailment.

Let us also not forget that tourism is apparently in a downswing these days. Even tourist super-lines like Strasburg are, from what I've heard here and observed first hand, feeling pinched. It is possible that ridership will improve itself eventually, when this period passes.

JPS



ironandsteam@msn.com

Steamtown needs to embark on a full marketing/visitor experience plan, which means management needs to give the people in the trenches budget and flexibility to do the job.

Now I know there are regulations and restrictions and all sorts of lack-of-logic policies a government agency has to deal with. But let's just take a flight of fancy.

I would adivse 10 things:

1. Set a voice for all of your media (advertising, PR, e-mail's to mom) that establishes Steamtown as fun, educational and a bargain (cheap at the door, close to home)

2. Run the most dramatic television ads possible as local cable avails on EVERY cable op within 4 hours of Scranton. What are local avails? Those are the spots you might see on ESPN advertising your local lumber yard. The cable ops sell them into time on national networks. They are dirt cheap and the best media bargain out there.

3. Put on a show when people ride your trains. Do run-bys, not for the foamers like me, but for the average family. What's more impressive about a steam locomotive than watching it thunder by at speed? Every trip, EVERY TRIP, needs a time for the family camcorder to come out see the THUNDER.

4. Keep 75% of your trips under 60 minutes in legnth. Run fast, furious and do a RUN-BY.

5. For the other 25% of the trips, run them all day if you want, but run them to a destination that will give people at least 2 hours on the ground to do something besides ride a train. Jim Thorpe anyone? Hershey?

6. Don't be afraid of people riding your machines. Give them an experience, a thrill, let them see what railroading was really like. Start by removing the uniforms. No one wants to have fun when they are surrounded by government uniforms. The NPS can show its pride, and look the part. For all the effort to make an "old time" experience, it gets lost in the ranger's garb. When it comes to the rangers, it's not the uniform -- it is the experience and input they can give that should be front and center.

And for heaven's sake, get rid of the guys with the guns. No one needs to see guns and park cops at a rail museum. Osama is not coming to Scranton, and John Ashcroft already knows your shoe size. Think of the people visiting and go from there.

7. I would definitely make the most of the talent on hand. There are folks on the Steamtown staff that understand exactly what to do -- for some reason, and there is always a reason -- roadblocks happen.

8. Carbondale trips are nice, if they are faster than 10 mph. Get out there and get some TEA money, state money, or funny money and get the track up to speed. Otherwise, stay on the Pocono main or work-out deals with the CPR and R&N to go off line.

9. Smother the local tourism outlets with the Steamtown message. Smother them.

10. Get national exposure. Get on cereal box, shoot a special for Discovery channel, get any kind of media exposure you can.

Whew.

Rob

The NPS is prohibited from advertising. This is ridiculous, the Army advertises, the IRS adertises and the printing office in Pueblo Colorado Advertises.. why not NPS?

On the other hand, if they could, would they do it right? The publicity guy didn't come from marketing/advertising or public relations-he was a law enforcement ranger.

voxverum@yahoo.com

> 4. Keep 75% of your trips under 60 minutes
> in legnth. Run fast, furious and do a
> RUN-BY.

Rob, big old negative on that one. Most people other than those of us who are certified FRN's prefer a leisurely, bucholic pace. They think they are absolutely flying at 30 mph.

We aren't dealing with No. 30 air, disk brake equipped Bombardier eqipment. These are 80 year old coaches coming down a 1.5% ruling grade with tricky curves equipped with UC & P valves, an occasionally balky brake and cast iron shoes. They are running behind friction-bearing locomotives with heat shrunk driver-tires.

Once you are East of Moscow it flattens and straightens out a bit and you can run a little faster without (as much) worry.

The thing you always hve to remember is kinetic energy increases as a square of the increase in speed. 40mph= 4 times the energy as 20mph.

I guarantee you everybody who's ever worked there would vote NO on "fast" and "furious", especially west of Moscow.



superheater@rrmail.com

> Rob, big old negative on that one. Most
> people other than those of us who are
> certified FRN's prefer a leisurely, bucholic
> pace. They think they are absolutely flying
> at 30 mph.

Having ridden Amtrak's Capitol Ltd and Three Rivers many times over the years, it's worth noting that 30mph IS fast for mountain railroading, or at least "not slow." There are PLENTY of places where the train, even today, is doing 30-35mph for extended periods. And you're right, it is still exciting.

Having said this, I think we're selling some non-railfans short. 30mph (well, maybe 35) is fine for interpreting a mountain railroad experience, but the non-railfans I bring on other 10-20mph lines complain non-stop asking why we are going so slow. They are also quick to notice things like the engine facing backwards. I hope people aren't going too far with the whole "well, the railfans complain but the general public won't care" mindset. I realize it isn't financially feasible for most short lines to have higher-speed tracks, but in cases like Steamtown, as long as it can be done safely, let them "air it out" a bit (35-40mph). Accurate preservation of an EXPERIENCE is still perfectly legitimate PRESERVATION in my mind.

> Once you are East of Moscow it flattens and
> straightens out a bit and you can run a
> little faster without (as much) worry.

I've been trying for years to find out just what the track limit is for this line without success. I think we hit 40 a few times on the Water Gap trips, but it's hard to tell on stiff riding old coaches.

JPS

ironandsteam@msn.com

I guess I am spoiled, having done well more than 30mph behind 2317 and 261 on the DL&W. ;-)

Here's my point... we need to think out of the box. There are plenty of rides that do the 20mph and under ride very, very well. In fact, I never tire of them.

However, Steamtown has the physical plant to operate in as mainline and safe a manner as steam ever did. I know we are dealing with old machines, but darn it, let them work as they were intended.

I don;t expect to say run 'em fast and have a chorus of people saying right on. It's a time proven axiom that we don't run them fast... (and by fast, I mean over 35mph).

Yet, what kind of show do we put on? I rode the Bel-Del this past weekend, Had a great time at 20 mph, even heard some stack talk. I recommend the ride.

However, there is no place within 5 hours of Joisey I can take my son to see a steam engine work out at even close to mainline speeds or loads, except Steamtown. And there, I can either put him in a coach for a long trip... longer than a 19 month old will handle... or I can take him trackside to see the train put on its show.

My argument is, give people the whole show. Give them a 35 or 40 mph run. Give them a run-by at speed. Let them understand.

My wife didn't "get" steam until she watched Ross put #614 through her paces at Port Jervis. That's what the "lay" public needs to see.

Steamtown, IMHO, must offer a different show than the other PA steam rides, and they could given the impetus to do. I say, added ridership would be that impetus.

Maybe I am wrong. I know it isn't the conventional wisdom, but I see conventional wisdom leading to trouble.

Rob

Once again, this discussion has migrated onto railroad operations, who goes how fast and where, and things like that. Now, this is well and good as it represents the interests of those posting the messages. This post is NOT, repeat, not critical of my colleagues who clearly are enjoying their hobby.

But, we should not forget that SNHS excursions are running due to politics and political intervention ("political sand" was a great term used by one of those herein involved). Granted, designing excursion trips that are interesting to the public (a marketable product) is a critical step.

However, if the Railroad Preservation Movement ever hopes to become more stable and politically robust, there needs to be much more discussion of policy, legislation, lobbying, agency liaison, and the like. In this case, these are the factors that are directly responsible for making the trains run.

That SNHS (or STEA or whatever you want to call it) is still struggling is prima facie evidence of the Movement's weakness when it comes to matters of politics and policy development.

amiller@rtms-movietrains.com