Thanks S.O. for putting the timeing of the 952's rescue in truthful perspective. As SO posted the initial activities involved in freeing the 952 from its St.Louis captors began in the early 1990's and involved an offer to swap an engine from the Steamtown collection and some other inticements that I no longer remember. When that offer was refused that caused the R&LHS chapter to be formed ( 1995) for the specific purpose of taking title to the engine from the national organization ( which was done) and persueing the return of the 952 to home territory and restoring it to operation.

While wilkins is technically correct that the rescue from the back lot occurred before the formal law suit was filed, the MOT was by then well aware that the owners were dead serious about retrieving their property and that they had better do something about the awful condition they had allowed the engine to deteriorate into, and thus the "rescue" from oblivion. You can believe it was strictly coincidental if you like but in my mind there's zero doubt as to the cause of their actions. And, as I earlier posted at least that good came out of the whole drama.

Knowing the Principal involved there's also no doubt in my mind that had the Chapter prevailed she'd by now be restored to operating condition and be running on a regional/shortline somewhere in her home territory!! Oh well, it wasn't meant to be and at least now she's no longer the forlorn derelict she was when this began!!

Sad but true!! Ross Rowland

You'll forgive many of the rest of us if, given the fact that we have no details on the exact boiler condition of 952 nor any identity of whoever the purported "sugar daddy" is/was, that we retain doubts.

PRR 1361........ Reading 2102....... C&O 614....... CP 972 and 1098..... LIRR 35 and 39 (coming along, but after decades of repair)...... Lackawanna 565, neglected for DECADES by the SAME folks professing their love for the 952, now coming along in spite of that neglect........ GTW 4070........... B&M 3713 (still waiting)....... And we see comparatively little of locomotives in better or superlative condition, such as Reading & Northern 425, M&H 91, EBT locos other than 15, PM 1225, BR&W 60.....

About the only party who might desire this loco that I could count on to restore this loco to operation dependably would be Herr Moedinger at the Strasburg, and I have a feeling that his operating personnel would have staged a coup had they been forced to operate a Camelback on a regular basis!

One other query: You state that the initial offers to MOT "involved an offer to swap an engine from the Steamtown collection and some other inticements that I no longer remember." Is there any chance you remember exactly how the R&LHS was able to offer for trade a locomotive that they in fact did not own? Was this an offer that involved the Steamtown Foundation or the Friends of Steamtown or whatever shadow organization existed pre-the NHS's official 1995 opening, and did they officially partner with or otherwise cooperate with the effort to repatriate 952?

In the end, the situation is kind of ironic. A group that doesn't own a locomotive offers to "trade" MOT. The "trade bait" is something the group doesn't own. The R&LHS group might as well have offered the CNJ 4-4-2 or the Reading 0-4-0, or even C&O 614, and Southern 1401 as the "trade bait" as they had about as much ownership interest in those locomotives as they did with anything in the Steamtown collection.

Those who think these alleged trade offers were "reasonable" needs to remember that Steamtown didn't have a comparable locomotive in their collection. MOT has a relatively modern MKT 4-4-0 already on the property. There was not a comparable locomotive in the Steamtown collection that was a camelback. Enough said.

As for Mr. Rowland's assertions, they are what they are, consider the source. Consider the claims he's made in the past about this matter and others, and draw your own conclusions regarding credibility. If his story about the "well heeled" principal with the "deep pockets" is true, it is at the very least comforting that in America today, money can't always buy justice.

David M. Wilkins
Last 952 Post, Missouri

A clarification to Mr Mitchel's posts.

The 565 has been a part of the Steamtown NHS collection since about 1988 or so when the property was transferred to the NPS. The NPS has, to my knowledge, never waded into the 952 saga.

This whole argument goes round and round year after year. Seems to me that's the definition of insanity, having the same set of circumstances and expecting a different result time and time again. Wake me up when something substantive happens.

Dave

PS: Go on railpictures.net or any other site and do a search for R&N 425 . By the end of Oct. she'll have run over 1000 miles on public trips this year.

Sorry, badly-worded post...........

What I meant to imply was that the folk(s) that seem so fixated on the 952 in Missouri completely ignored what was, at the time, an equally sad-looking, equally authentic, equally Lackawanna steam locomotive that was already a thousand miles closer to New Jersey--a loco that is now getting "tender" love and care from a group of volunteers that have accomplished much more in real productivity than anything that happened in the courts re: 952.......... And if possession of a potentially operable Lackawanna steamer was their goal, they could have accomplished such in the 1980's (as I recall, 565 showed up at Scranton about the same time the first steamers from Vermont did, ca. 1984 or 1985)....

At the risk of leaving myself open to more commentary, I think the best course of action would be to switch gears and begin talks with Strasburg for the purchase of 1187.

At the very least the R&LHS will have a camelback to restore. I think that given the extensive use of this type of engine in the early days of RRing in the Northeast that it could certainly find a home in or around Scranton or Steamtown.

Further more, after things have cooled down, it's certainly possible that St. Louis may consider a swap for 952, being a comperable engine.

The bottom line for me is that 952 has been preserved, at least cosmetically. 1187 is not so lucky.

The plan may have been to have both on display. When they started to hit interference from St Louis, it probably took on a life of it's own and became a urination contest. 565 either then fell by the wayside, was part of plan contingent on 952, or the experience soured/drove off anyone who had been willing to put the legwork in on 565.

Just a friendly reminder that the Interchange is not a forum for debate. Even all of the what-if stuff is not within our guidelines. This thread is not productive and I am closing it out.