This has been an interesting topic but as others have pointed out, is lacking in the practical aspects of battling sexism in railway preservation. We seem to have determined that there are two differing schools of thought on the issue. One group claims that sexism is "systemic" in the entire industry and that whether or not we can see or feel it, it is always there in the very foundation of everything we do. The other camp doesn't see it as systemic but instead focuses on individual acts and how to respond to those individual acts. I obviously fall into the second camp, mainly because I do not believe in the concept of "group guilt" and also because I believe that only by changing individual actions over time can the cultural norms change. I also did not see much evidence of systemic sexism. The survey provides some anecdotal evidence of individual acts, but doesn't seem to point toward a systemic cause.

I am glad that we are having this discussion since it seems increasingly difficult to have a real uncensored conversation about important topics in today's social media climate. In days past these threads would have been immediately locked, but by doing so we deny ourselves the opportunity to learn. Lets continue to keep it civil and avoid personal attacks. We are after all on the same side here.

A wise man recently said that we don't need unnecessary antagonism in rail preservation right now. Those are words to live by!

In the full sized railroad I worked for before retirement, there was required annual training in such topics as sexual harassment, business ethics, computer security, safety, bomb threat situations, automotive and purchasing policies, etc.

As with any human endeavor, the possibility of "Encapsulated Training" - where the knowledge never gets acted on outside of the training - can be a problem. If that happens consistently, then Yes, that is an example of a systematic problem.

From time to time there were examples of wrongdoing at a specific location within the company, sometimes it turned out the bad behavior had been going on for some time. Another example of systematic problem at that location.

The point I'd like to make is that if you have an ongoing individual behaving badly without correction - that's an example of a systematic problem. The correction has to somehow come from your organization. Yep, individual communication is good enough. Slinking out of sight during bad behavior is not.

There's plenty of ways "isms" are communicated. Criticizing it on sight is the way to go. I don't expect to change folks internal thinking, but the organization should make it unwise to act on.

Brian

I do not believe sexism is systemic either. But to those who believe it is, what exactly does it mean in practical terms? All of the definitions I have heard simply say it is a problem of the group rather than an individual cause. Incidentally, does “individual cause,” mean caused by individuals? Or does it mean just a single cause? That is never clarified.

I might be convinced that there is systemic sexism if the term were clearly defined.

Generally, it seems that the motivation behind the concept of systemic sexism is to create a problem and then shield it from ever being solved. In that sense, it would be like a grievance that is so useful in demanding action and redress that it is better left intact for that purpose. This is described in “A Nation of Victims” by Robert Sykes.

However, if systemic sexism is truly practical and defined by individual offenses, what makes it “systemic”? To be so would seem to require that the individual offenses are being committed by everyone in the group that comprises the “system” that fulfills the label of “systemic.” That universal commitment of the offense seems highly unlikely.

However, it has also been said that systemic means that the cause is merely collective rather than being due to individual actions. If that is the case, how is the collective cause working to create actual sexism? That question has never been answered.

If we don’t have the answer to that question, how can we put an end to sexism?

I'll contribute to the discussion when it's worth contributing to; go scream at Nvpete or anyone else screeching about cancel culture first.

It appears to me that a couple people here are putting sincere effort and thought into actually analyzing the problem, and seeing if solutions can be found. (This, of course, is an approach that is anathema to the "capitulate to us or be destroyed!" agitators elsewhere.)

Whereas others here are now fixated upon being reduced to hurling personal insults at others.

This reflects the real world so-called "debate" on "-isms." Any honest debate on real potential solutions, or at least appropriate means to address either the situation or the allegations, is negated by the toxicity of personal attacks, extortionary threats, and even violence in some cases.

Were I a moderator, several posts would be missing from this thread. I might ask the moderators to revisit the alleged ban on "personal attacks"..................

Systemic sexism (on a whole) is not something one can choose to believe in or not. It’s not a religion or a political point of view.

The only “choice” one has is to deny its reality. And that’s pretty much what this entire thread is about - accepting or denying reality. In fact, I would posit that most of humanity’s gender and race problems are denials of reality. As soon as someone’s personal experiences differ from our own, humans get defensive.

My advice? Take a deep breath. It’s not about you, stop being defensive and start being open. It’s easier and more rewarding than tilting at windmills.

Peace out, RYPN.

Rob

Actually systemic sexism is a political ideology rooted in feminism and has morphed into something that could be termed a non theistic religion. You may be so immersed in it that you cannot step back and see it for what it really is. Fortunately, coming from the hinterlands I can and so can others.

Yes this is about all of us, because if these radical leftwing ideologies fully pervade our industry, it will disappear. Let me remind everyone that this is not about treating women as equals or giving them equal opportunities or equal participation, this is a philosophy based on power dynamics. Don't believe me? Read up: https://www.thoughtco.com/what-is-sexism-3529186

You seem to be painting with a very broad brush in a thread that has 10 pages of comments. Exactly what specific comments by others are you addressing with your “advice” in the above post?

Here's me being constructive:

I think the vocal resistance to even admitting there is a problem whatsoever, and branding everyone who says there might be as a "Kid", "Cancel Culture", "Radical Leftist Authoritarians", etc, is much more telling than anything else.

How about listening when people tell you they've personally faced problems? You can't just sit in denial with your head in the sand. At the end of the day, countless people have said they've seen or faced problems - it's not about you personally, it's about Rail Preservation as a whole. Just because you haven't seen it at Your Org doesn't mean it's not going on.

But by all means, keep denying it and branding everyone talking about it stalinists (which is totally not an authoritarian thing to do by the way). But when the time comes where you realize you need more members to help, and your existing members are aging; don't get mad or blame phones and video games after you realize that your problems have made you intensely unpalatable to young people.

Here’s the issue. Let’s say that you talk to me personally about the issues. When people, including you, keep mentioning the problems, it’s made to sound like it is a problem that is my fault, whether directly or indirectly being complicit in it. When you talk about “rail preservation as a whole” and you see larger rail preservationists in here, they’re obviously going to take offense to that. It’s like going up to the microphone at a defense lawyer convention and saying that “it’s not about you personally, but defense lawyering as a whole”. Who knew? People don’t like to be bad mouthed about.

People do take it personally because of how it’s being phrased. And because they do take it personally from people like you, they will deny claims of it from people like you.

At the end of the day, anyone can see that “cancel culture”, while it’s not as large as it may seem for regular Americans, is a thing. It can have influence in your life and people have been thrown in the wringer for frankly harmless things or even nothingburgers.

I'd appreciate some help with where I would fall on the spectrum of this topic

I began my railroading career in 1947 ( age 7 ) as a mascot in the steam roundhouse of the CRRofNJ in Cranford NJ about a 5 minute bike ride from our house. By age 11 the full timers had taught me how to clean fires, start air compressors and run the engines so on bad weather days they'd send me out into the yard to bring an engine in, spin it on the table and put it away on a given track. No women anywhere around.

Then I graduated to the Pine Creek RR and ran Shay #6 around a 5/8 mile oval in Allaire State Park at the roaring speed of 5 mph. No women around.

Then I graduated to the BR&W RR and fired & ran BR&W 2-8-0 # 60 at the blazing speed of 15-20 mph. No women around.

Then I graduated to the High Iron Company ( HICO ) and ran various mainline engines over 12 different class 1 railroads at track speed ( 79 mph max.) No women around.

Then I graduated to the AFT and ran the AFT 1 ( Rdg. 2101) throughout the Northeast pulling the AFT at 45 mph max. No women around.

Then I graduated to running C&O 614 over various Class 1 roads at track speed ( 90 mph max.) . No women around.

To be clear when I say no women around I mean in engine service.

Going forward I'd like to stay with what's worked well for me since 1947. I hope that doesn't make me too much of a sexist?? If it does I'll just have to live with it.

Such is life. Thanks, Ross Rowland

No African Americans around either. We know how you feel about that, so it's no surprise that you have done nothing to include women either.

As usual Txhighballer your logic escapes me ( and I suspect most others ?) , What on earth does an absence of Blacks in my engine service career to date have to do with there having been no women involved either??

Convoluted logic at best.

Ross Rowland

Because it’s the same exact point as what you made concerning no women in your career….

Ross: Times change. Accept it or be thrown to the wayside. The fact you're primarily labeling organizations you had a significant operational hand in says a lot more to me than you think it does.

Women like trains. I know tons of women into trains and tons who'd like to work on a footplate crew, me included. You didn't see them because you didn't want to see them; and at the time society didn't really want to see them.




Boo hoo. It's not badmouthing without reason; it's badmouthing because enough people have noticed a structural trend; and the loudest voices are often the ones who are part of the trend - see Ross. And denying it just makes you part of the problem.