Borrowing a line from Mr.Peck's post:Additionally, how long do you think it will take for the general public to destroy the original fabric of these railcars?
With proper maintenance and care locomotives and rolling stock should last indefinitely. If you want living proof of that, just come here to Fort Collins, Colorado and visit our streetcar #21. We have been running this Registered National Historic Landmark now for almost 20 years now and she is in just as good a shape now as any time in her past and maybe better.
Roger Mitchell
Master Mechanic: Fort Collins Municipal Railway

n0mcr@netzero.com

Well, it's being done in England, and is actually become quite a regular part of their world -- from the total replication to partials suing available parts from long gone or basket case engines.

If they can do it there, we can do it here.

Not saying it is right for Georgetown, but the idea is not without merit in the US.

> Do you have any idea of the costs of
> developing the patterns for casting parts
> such as cylinder saddles, truck frames,
> boiler supports, etc. from blueprints that
> possibly no longer exist, not to mention
> fabricating a boiler that meets modern code
> requirments? This is a nice idea in theory,
> in practicality, the costs simply are
> excessive and cannot be returned from a
> business standpoint for a tourist railroad.
> If they could be, we'd have already seen
> replicas of New York Central Hudsons roaming
> around!!!

> And again, the C&S and DSP&P
> locomotives did not develop enough tractive
> effort to haul the trains we currently do.

> Ted Krumreich

> Might this be a good time for an operator to

> Well, it's being done in England, and is
> actually become quite a regular part of
> their world -- from the total replication to
> partials suing available parts from long
> gone or basket case engines.

> If they can do it there, we can do it here.

*In all fairness, let's look at what has REALLY happened in the UK over the years:

-Slow, slow progress towards the A1 mainline 4-6-2 project, which now has frames, wheels, a tender, and (I think) cylinders but still no boiler.....
-Proposals for several replicas of bigger locos, including a BR "Clan" 4-6-2, with similar slow progress (see link below);
-Replicas actually built of pioneering locos such as Locomotion, Rocket, Novelty, etc.
-a steamable replica of a GWR broad-gauge loco, "Iron Duke" (as well as necessary 7-foot-gauge panel track!)
-several Welsh narrow-gauge steamers built anew from old plans--akin to building a Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes 0-4-4T times two......

Don't get me wrong. The British have advanced replica building far more than Americans have, but I don't want Americans to get the false impression that the British are running the equivalent of replica NYC Hudsons and UP Challengers when it's more like one replica D&RGW steamer and several two-foot locos and construction under way on a SR Ps-4 Pacific replica.

Ultimate Steam Page report on BR Standard project
LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

> Well, it's being done in England, and is
> actually become quite a regular part of
> their world -- from the total replication to
> partials suing available parts from long
> gone or basket case engines.

> If they can do it there, we can do it here.

> Not saying it is right for Georgetown, but
> the idea is not without merit in the US.

This same subject came up in another publication in recent years. IMHO it is impractical from a cost standpoint to consider such replication in the USA. The funding is not there. Tourist operations run on tight budgets with meager if any support from dependable outside sources--read: government. The UK has their Heritage Lottery that can and does fund such work there, if only because the rail hobby is so pervasive and revered as to enjoy wide support. I think it a fair bet there are 10 times as many serious railfans per capita in the UK vs. here. As for any modern USA steam locos (e.g., NYC 4-6-4) those were all built on one piece cast frames, the production of which would be prohibitively expensive now--if it could be done at all. UK locos used plate frames, easily and relatively inexpensively produced from big pieces of rolled plate and programmed cutting torches. But big boilers continue to be the major problem, even in the UK. Check out the non-progress on that front for the A1 Pacific repro group in UK.

Dream all you want, it's free. But if you want to build an NYC J3a, you'd better have a Donald Trump size checkbook handy. I'll offer a SWAG of $10,000,000 to build one such loco. Anyone got that kind of pocket change handy?


K3PRR@verizon.net

Sandy,

there are also a few builds wrapping up that have used peices of other locomotives to create replica's, never-beens and what-if's... all decent size locos.

Rob

> *In all fairness, let's look at what has
> REALLY happened in the UK over the years:

> -Slow, slow progress towards the A1 mainline
> 4-6-2 project, which now has frames, wheels,
> a tender, and (I think) cylinders but still
> no boiler.....
> -Proposals for several replicas of bigger
> locos, including a BR "Clan"
> 4-6-2, with similar slow progress (see link
> below);
> -Replicas actually built of pioneering locos
> such as Locomotion, Rocket, Novelty, etc.
> -a steamable replica of a GWR broad-gauge
> loco, "Iron Duke" (as well as
> necessary 7-foot-gauge panel track!)
> -several Welsh narrow-gauge steamers built
> anew from old plans--akin to building a
> Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes 0-4-4T
> times two......

> Don't get me wrong. The British have
> advanced replica building far more than
> Americans have, but I don't want Americans
> to get the false impression that the British
> are running the equivalent of replica NYC
> Hudsons and UP Challengers when it's more
> like one replica D&RGW steamer and
> several two-foot locos and construction
> under way on a SR Ps-4 Pacific replica.

Puffing Billy RR is operating home built replicas of the Baldwins we sent them decades ago. The frames and running gear are generally overhauled and reused while new boilers are retrofit as required. Since the advent of welded boilers, the shells are now generally recycled with new fireboxes and tubes. These engines are in the same size range as those which would be practical at GLRR.

Australia has also built some very large and fast express passenger locomotives - the 3800's - with fabricated steel cylinder saddles.

It doesn't have to be done in the USA as if we were still using 1880 technology but paying 2004 prices. High pressure water cut bar frames welded to fabricated cylinder saddles and roller bearings everywhere, standard pipe threads and fittings, welded ASME boilers - and international suppliers - might make replication as cost effective as overhauling park hulks in first cost, especially if the park hulks are highly depreciated, and certainly much cheaper to run, maintain, and infinitely more reliable. I won't even get into the efficiency and cleanliness issues here.

Further, suppose there exists in India or China or Poland patterns for casting, say, cylinder saddles suitable for the application? Lots of engineering, patternmaking, and other startup costs just vanished. Nobody to my knowledge has searched. Many old patterns remain in the Glover collection, but are not available for use.

If steam is to continue to operate in the USA on intensively worked tourist lines, replication isn't an if but a when. At some point, everything will fatigue or crystallize or simply wear out. Many tourist railroads have already replaced major portions of their existing locomotive fleet. We'd best be looking around now to assure that resources won't disappear before we need them.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Puffing Billy RR is operating home built
> replicas of the Baldwins we sent them
> decades ago. The frames and running gear are
> generally overhauled and reused while new
> boilers are retrofit as required. Since the
> advent of welded boilers, the shells are now
> generally recycled with new fireboxes and
> tubes. These engines are in the same size
> range as those which would be practical at
> GLRR.

> Australia has also built some very large and
> fast express passenger locomotives - the
> 3800's - with fabricated steel cylinder
> saddles.

> It doesn't have to be done in the USA as if
> we were still using 1880 technology but
> paying 2004 prices. High pressure water cut
> bar frames welded to fabricated cylinder
> saddles and roller bearings everywhere,
> standard pipe threads and fittings, welded
> ASME boilers - and international suppliers -
> might make replication as cost effective as
> overhauling park hulks in first cost,
> especially if the park hulks are highly
> depreciated, and certainly much cheaper to
> run, maintain, and infinitely more reliable.
> I won't even get into the efficiency and
> cleanliness issues here.

> Further, suppose there exists in India or
> China or Poland patterns for casting, say,
> cylinder saddles suitable for the
> application? Lots of engineering,
> patternmaking, and other startup costs just
> vanished. Nobody to my knowledge has
> searched. Many old patterns remain in the
> Glover collection, but are not available for
> use.

> If steam is to continue to operate in the
> USA on intensively worked tourist lines,
> replication isn't an if but a when. At some
> point, everything will fatigue or
> crystallize or simply wear out. Many tourist
> railroads have already replaced major
> portions of their existing locomotive fleet.
> We'd best be looking around now to assure
> that resources won't disappear before we
> need them.

> dave

From the knowledge we gained from the R&D done through the ACE3000 project, I would guess that in todays dollars you'd be looking at somewhere in the vicinity of $20-$30 million to reproduce a modern end of steam 4-8-4 incorporating the advances in materials science etc. that have appeared since the late '40's.

Best regards, Ross Rowland

rrowland@weidel.com

> From the knowledge we gained from the
> R&D done through the ACE3000 project, I
> would guess that in todays dollars you'd be
> looking at somewhere in the vicinity of
> $20-$30 million to reproduce a modern end of
> steam 4-8-4 incorporating the advances in
> materials science etc. that have appeared
> since the late '40's.

> Best regards, Ross Rowland

Hey everyone,

I've been spending some time researching the possibility of rebuilding a "modern" steam engine from an exsiting one. It's the beginnings of an engineering report I'm working on for a thermodynamics course at college. But since this came up, I'll pose the question to the guys here who are much more educated on the matters than myself.

Ok, granted the purists would have our heads, but how unreal is this concept? Let's say we take a locomotive out there, maybe a late 4-8-4 with roller bearings and such (and everything else that was state of the art in the late 40's). If it's a coal burner, maybe convert to oil fire? Use today's knowlege of heat transfer, insulation, and electronics to design an efficient locomotive. Include things such as sensors to measure temperature on all axles and bearings, possibly even a computer controlled firing system? How about one of those exhaust systems Wardale or Porta put together? Maybe it would even have the same power output as before, just with a much higher efficiency?

Obviously we're not looking for steam to make it's comeback anytime soon, but in theory, would there be any substance to this concept? Maybe it would be the ultimate mainline steam locomotive.

Am I way off the deep end, or could this happen? Apologies if this has been debated here before. If it has, can anyone point me in the direction of some quality research for the report?

Many thanks!

Tim Botti

tjb23@pitt.edu

in 24" guage or 30"?

I can hook you up with a real nice, modern, brand spanking new 24" guage 2-6-2, outside frame piston valved, 13 tons give or take for under 500K.

Lemme know.

jjtemplin@southernuniongroup.com

Just to add to previous post (why do you always think of something after you hit the post button?), I'm aware of some of the attempts in other countries for modern rebuilds (the Red Devil comes to mind) but how feasible is it for the US?

Tim Botti

tjb23@pitt.edu

Under 500K for a 2 foot 2-6-2, 20 mil for a standard gage 4-8-4. Using costs from a decade ago, SLM new product for about 2.5 mil for a 3 foot 2-8-2.

Just goes to show we don't really have a plan and a true cost for other than these specific proposals, which, granted, cover a lot of ground.

Representatives from MultiPower occasionally post here - any ballpark estimates on a 3 foot gage 2-8-0 built to ASME standards?

dave



irondave@bellsouth.net

>I am aware of the projects in England an elsewhere. I recently had a Brit ride the cab with me at Georgetown and we talked about the A1 project.

The other responses in this thread make the point maybe I didn't make well, it's possible, just not practical for any one other than someone with VERY deep pockets or lots of government assistance. How many tourists do you think a tourist railroad would have to haul per year (and at what ticket price?) to financially justify some of the numbers put forth in this thread for producing a replica steam engine? Don't get me wrong, I LOVE steam engines and having been firing and running them for 22 years.

Costs aside, there is one other factor and that is the time involved in producing such replicas. And, the great Colorado Historical Society has exactly 287 days left to conceive, design and construct one of these 'replicas' to get themselves out of the mess they've created.

Or, admit that they have been horribly mislead for some personal, political reasons and come back to the bargining table with the Ashby's/Greksa's and listen to some reason about the real costs of operating this railroad.

Ted

Well, it's being done in England, and is
> actually become quite a regular part of
> their world -- from the total replication to
> partials suing available parts from long
> gone or basket case engines.

> If they can do it there, we can do it here.

> Not saying it is right for Georgetown, but
> the idea is not without merit in the US.


tedloco@aol.com

CUBA..............

I know, I know......... But IF we can get around that ban, we have LOTS of 3-foot locos to repatriate and restore or reboiler.......

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

Please correct me if I am wrong, Ted, but I have read very definite statements from Mark and had spoken statements relayed to me made by Lindsey categorically refusing to reenter into negotiations with CHS. Do you have other information? I believe the issue has been decided by parties on both sides of the table, and the only agreement is that the horse is most definitely dead, but would welcome better news if it is factual and supported.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> CUBA..............

> I know, I know......... But IF we can get
> around that ban, we have LOTS of 3-foot
> locos to repatriate and restore or
> reboiler.......

No I didn't forget......I would anticipate a great deal of work would be required to assure Cuban boilermaking standards for the decades of repair out in the sugar mills is up to ASME or other applicable US industrial standards. New boilers would most likely be cheaper.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net