On a previous version of this thead, we have issued a warning. We are back again.

We have noted the arm chair, long distance quarterbacking. Additionally the last several posts are becoming argumentive.

This thead is close to being locked

I too will choose to interpret Mr. Davis' remarks to permit those with some "experience" the right to post on this topic?? I would certainly think that Mr. Harbison would also be included in the posting permitted crew based on his extensive steam experience in general, his personal steam operating experience on the specific grade in question AND the fact that he was an eye witness to both attempts? I'm confident Mr. Davis will correct me if he deems that appropriate.
Ross Rowland

Darn it, I thought I had those track charts somewhere............

Well, just for fun, I pulled up the track chart for the famous PRR Horse Shoe Curve instead. Nine degrees, fifteen minutes.

Make of that what you will.

this as with anything, it is far easier to sit back and critize others. y knowlage in steam loxcomotive operation is limited to turning on my Lionel transformers. But with all the mountians to climb in running a steam locomotive in 2006, well done toany who try.

Dave

Bob,

Was not directed at you and Ross per se, clearly as I said anyone with out knwoeldge of the facts. You'll find no greater fan of Ross Rowland's work than me. If anything, I could be the president of his fan club.

It is the negatitve tone in general that has surrounded this topic online that rubs me wrong - which, I think you will admit, has been flamed mostly be people without the insight you have. I look to RYPN to be a place to get away from the rumor mongering.

I have said it before, and I will say it again.... it is a very small community of people interested in railroad preservation, and if we continue to eat our own, we will continue to be our own worst enemies.

Every year, there's another operator or operation that gets chewed up and spit out in the rumour mill, without any positive results seeming to come of it.

Think about that for a moment....

It was done to the Altoona guys last year

It was done to Ross after the series of 614 trips on NJT

It is done to Steamtown every few years

It was done to Mr. Levin when he bought the Erie E-8

Does any good come out of it? Do any of us, who are not involved with a project, really add anything valuable by armchair quarterbacking?

Look, I know I am not above hitting below the belt, but I look at this way - running a steam operation is a very hard thing to do. Very few steam operations last more than 5 or 10 years of continual service under steam.

Payne is trying. If he fails, what I will remember more from this time is not his failure, but the failure of likeminded individuals to support him with, at the very least, goodwill.

If you fall into the goodwill category already, that's great!

Rob








quote="Bobharbison"]> Any post by anyone who has no knowledge of the situation...

How do you know what knowledge other posters have on the situation?

Take my comments for example, which actually weren't negative since I said I feel that 2100 can make the hill... What do I have to back up my comments?

4 years being part of the crew on Reading T1's 2102 and 2101.
30 years experience in steam operations.
25 years experience on the line in question.
I've personally run steam up that hill.
I was there on site for both test runs.

I seem to recall Ross has also been around T1's a time or two.[/quote]

Thank you Mr. Davis for your excellent post. As one who has recieved my fair share of critisisms( some very warranted-some not) I can relate to your message. I basically strongly agree with the essense of what you say and try my darndest to be supportive of everyone who trys to help keep the steam flame burning(regardless of mainline or branch) no matter the level of the attempt. If you'll look at my earlier posts on this outfit you'll see that I was counseling support and holding judgement for just the reasons you put so well.
However, there's come a point when an operation that has had many offers of assistance from well meaning knowledgeable steam people( with solid track records of achievement) and turned them down(or ignored them), and then goes out and runs a very poorly executed show can't be ignored forever because as has been rightly posted above by others, the bad taste this creates lasts a LONG time and hurts everyone of us in this very rarified tiny world.
I TRULY hope they'll now reach out and accept the assistance that's been offerred by folks who know the game so that we'll all be winners! Nothing would please me more!
Ross Rowland

I would revise what Txhighballer says a bit.............

SOME of us want unqualified success for the Tacoma operation--any excuse to see big steam put on a show.

SOME of us will find fault with anything, no matter what the cause.

And others here (I would like to think that includes Brothers Harbison and Rowland) wish no ill will upon the Tacoma "gang", but are still going to cry foul if we sense something stupid or dangerous. I've seen or heard of nothing so far that smacks of any danger, but I can't say the same for "I would pursue the same proposal given the opportunity".

If someone proposed putting, say, a FEC 4-6-2 on a wooden-trestle roller coaster to power a train around it, or if somebody thinks the answer to more power on a steam locomotive is to double the working pressure to 500 psi, I feel I have an obligation to the historic equipment in question and my fellow humans to stop them. That's not nay-saying; that's screaming "the emperor has no clothes!"

So far the onlyevidence I have seen is the alleged 14.5 degree curve at the top of this thread. I see a Reading T1 and that curve as a bad mismatch for routine steam train operation. You may disagree; I'll defer to those with more experience in the matter. I consider the "jury still out" on choice of equipment, pricing, market, etc.

Mind you, I might feel a little differently about this if there still weren't three other Reading T1's around--one in operable storage--on my/their home turf. I might feel differently about the matter if, say, this were the last London & North Eastern A3, PRR I1, or SP Daylight being proposed for operation on, say, Crawford Notch or Cass.......... <:-)

And SOME of us are following this discussion for the really great postings you are all providing. By far the most interesting and animated string in this forum for quite a while.

Well put Brother Mitchell. I hope that I'm solidly in the wanting them to do well camp. Unfortunatly I have been privy to a lot of behind the scenes happenings (from multi decade freinds on the site that are steam knowledgeable) that very much concern me in both the stupidity and safety areas as contained in Mr. Mitchells post. Tacoma Rail has taken actions to address the most agregious of these and hopefully as previously posted the folks at GPRR will now enlist the local assistance thats been offerred by steam qualified professionals to put the operation on a sound mechanical and operating footing.
For all our sakes I certainly hope so!
Ross Rowland

I must echo the statement of mxdata. I have enjoyed Ross' reminisinces of ops with RDG 2101 over Sand Patch and other technical aspects of dealing with a T1 in a variety of track conditions (grades and curves). Preservation of such a record in these series of posts is very important as part of our legacy in preserving steam over the years.

Wesley

AutoCAD is better than a guess....

Follow this link and note that each tile is 200 meters x 200 meters

Tacoma Freight House Curve + Terraserver

1. Download the applicable tiles.
2. Convert tiles to raster images (TIFF files).
3. Import into AutoCAD.
4. Use the SCALE command, REFERENCE option.
5. Define one tile edge = 200 meters = 656 ft.
6. Use the 3 POINT ARC or CIRCLE command to draw the curve.
7. Use INQUIRY/LIST commands to learn the radius.


I have been advised that the eastern tangent track as marked is actually a road parallel to the railroad track. This changes the eastern tanget transition of the curve but not the radius.

A data book by Baldwin indicates a rule of widening the gauge by 1/8" for every 2 degrees above an 8 degree curve. Per chance, has the track gang attended to this? It would definitely have a positive affect on driver flange wear.

For the record the Reading rated the T-1 for a 19 degree curve. I assume that is with gage widening. Is the gage greater than 56.5 inches on the curve at Taccoma? If not they are probably pushing the limits of both the T-1 and track. If the ties are not up to snuff and perhaps gage rods in the curve to help hold the gage I suspect gage widening will take place automatically each time a train goes through the curve. At least it does on the many tight curves I have to maintain.

John Bohon

I know for a fact that during her career as AFT#1 the 2101 negotiated a lot of sharp curves at various points along the route of the AFT(in/out of display sites, little used sidings etc.) and with a little "lubrication" always seemed to make it. I do not believe the T-1's were equipped with lateral relief devises as is the 614. These devises enable the drivers to semi-articulate and thus the 614 even with a slightly longer rigid wheelbase than a T-1 is rated for a 20 degree curve. In any event the 14 degree curve at the base of the Tacoma pull is not the ruling factor of that exercise-the 3.5% grade is.
Ross Rowland

This brings to mind the AFT-1's display site in Boston, along Northern Avenue. These were tracks which curved sharply in and around wharf buildings -- some were even buried flush with cobblestone! However I do not remember if the locomotive was there on the waterfront with the train. Does anyone?