".........(and buy a 79mph regional upon which to run her)......."
Ross Rowland

Think about the possibilities if/when the BNSF divests itself of the Raton Pass line and the State of New Mexico purchases it for the commuter operation on the Albuquerque end of the line. Other than Amtrak 3 and 4 and possibly some haulage agreement trains from the BNSF, the line will be devoid of traffic. Imagine what today's operable big steam could do on Raton Pass and the rest of the railroad. Albuquerque is a "big-time" city in itself and this would be another draw in the southern/southwestern Colorado steam and tourist train market. Add a Raton Pass or Albuquerque train to the existing Royal Gorge, La Veta Pass, C&TS and D&SNG operations and you'd have yourself one heck of a week of excursion rides.

Don C.

Randy,
You are so right when it comes to the personal distribution of disposable income. I have two other vices in addition to railroading...........live music concerts and Harley Davidsons. For example, Jimmy Buffett tickets (yes I am a Parrothead) are going for $126 for a pavilion seat in the Chicago area this year....if you can get them! If you go to Sturgis for the annual motorcycle rally, hotels are in the $100 to $200 per night range. It all depends on what your priorities are (for most people it is a roof over their heads and food on the table) but there is DISCRETIONARY spending. There are plenty of "boomers" out there looking for something "different" to do and, as several people have pointed out in this thread, the main objective is to not saturate a market and provide an experience that is at, or above, the customers' expectations. The problem is capturing the people who have "lobster tastes but a frozen fish stick wallet."

Don C.

An example of the cost of a main line steam excursion in UK would be a trip on Saturday ,26 March, from London to Salisbury. The trip is about 170 miles out and back,using BR Standard Class 5 #73096 4-6-0 (A Black Five) departing from London. They offer a Family Plan ticket for £135.00 (or about $235.00 US). This is comparable to 4 field tickets for a major league baseball game @ $44.00/seat(Phillies) ,3 so-so seats at the Pocono 500, Tickets for a concert, Jimmy Buffet at the Tweeter Center for example -$130.00 a piece for lawn tickets. Now compare the $65.00/seat or $260.00 for 4 on the 614 trips and the hundred dollar tickets for the UP trips. I don't think it's a money thing, the people just don't have the interest here for some reason. Maybe a new marketing angle needs to be looked at. And yes, it has to be remembered that the daisy pickers are the majority of the ridership, so catering to them is a must.

I wish I had but three. I have at least four --- railroadiana, big steam, wood sailboats, and classic cars. Most of which I come by honestly --- others in my family were into them first, with exception of railroadian and big steam.


In turn, I come from a long line of hoarders --- I'm the grandchild of those who survived the depression, and who thought we would be returning to the barter system at any time. My grandmother never threw out my dad's baseball cards; my parents kept their first car when they were married (a 1969 Firebird Convertible) because it was wedding gift from my grandparents; my grandmother kept her grandma's china, etc. With the passing of both grandmothers and a dad, its meant a lot of sorting for my wife, me and my mom --- and tough decisions to boot.

With two kids, a wife, and a mortgage at 35K a year ------- well, you do the math.

Me-thinks Thoreau was ON to something at Walden...................less is more.



That is if, there are any rooms LEFT when you get there. Sturgis is one of those things one should do once in life, no matter if there is interests in cycles or not; the people watching/ humanity aspect is worth it alone. As many friends as I have who are into them, and as much as I respect those who restore the older ones especially, I dare not jump into that hobby full on though ---- "Restoring the Indian" is one of my favorite all time books --- as I would be one of those crazy Indian idiots accelerating/ shifting with the opposite hand of your Harley guys. No wonder there's none of them left ---- they killed off all their drivers!

TJG

I think brother Warren has hit the nail square on the head. People can and will come off the money. Either the product is not what people want or it is not being marketed properly. Of course there is also the problem now that there is not much mainline steam to market anyway.

Well, if we're in the "what if" mode, what about a certain Pacific running between Philadelphia and Atlantic City over territory in which it and its sisters once powered multiple trains every day of the year at 60-mph-plus?

TJ, You're still a lightweight with the "other vices". In addition to rail preservation, add antique sports cars (multiple MG's), old bikes (Jap and Brit), Civil War reenacting, antique collecting, old houses (1921 foursquare, looking for a Craftsman or Victorian), HO modeling, good fiction, the list goes on....... Not to mention good sippin' whiskey and younger women. I need to win the lottery just to have time to keep up with my vices. I'm wasting 50 hours a week on work. And GW, in the "what if" department, I'd be happy with with about 75 miles of low density trackage next to I-81 in my home state, a string of nice heavyweights, and a long term lease on a certain 2-8-2 that is now only a display at it's home in Tennessee. Of course, an FEC light Pacific and an N&W "M" would be good stablemates.

Wayne,

Your "what if" is way closer to reality than mine!

If the desitination is Atlantic City, they need to be sure they buy a round trip ticket before they leave. Depending on their day, buying a return ticket may be difficult!

Regards,

Randy

A couple of reactions.
1. To Don C.-you do the set-up work with the necessary gov't. agencies out there and we'll provide 614 to do the mainline gig as you proposed. Seems like a natural to me too!!
2. To Randy- I believe you're correct stating that 614 is as close as one can come to a NYC 6000 class engine with locos. that exist today.With some very minor cosmetic exterior changes her appearance would be very very close to the Niagara. Personally, I'm grateful shes got 74 inch drivers vs.80 on the 6000's as it makes her a much better "puller" in hilly country,something the NYC didn't need to worry about. Who knows ,perhaps the occassion will one day arise where it will be appropriate for her to get dressed up as a Niagara,perhaps as 6014???
Ross Rowland

Ross,
I have ridden behind #614 out of Chicago on the wonderful Chessie Steam Specials of bygone years and the locomotive is truly one of the restorations that I never thought I would live to see. I've got another coal-burning, operable 4-8-4 in mind for this operation. I envision any responsible operator being able to run on this trackage with multiple engines operating at certain special events (such as OHCR's Trainfest). In other words, a home for the presently homeless engines.

Don C.

Don:

Any local traffic at all?

Les

Don,C. Well, let's get it on!! We can have an annual "Great Locomotive Race' to determine which is the "finest of them all". Times a wastin-we ain't gettin any younger!!
Ross Rowland

One feature of the British Isles is that you can take a train and/or bus from almost anywhere to many of the heritage lines that have steam or to the departure points for mainline steam excursions in 2 or 3 hours. Contrast that geographic reality with the situation here in the US, where a car is almost always mandatory, and a lengthy plane ride is often required as well. I would suggest that this ease of access is a large part of their success.
By the way, I took my then 16 year old son to see 614 in Port Jervis. Thank's to Mr. Rowland for the thrill of big steam that we both enjoyed. The big hat was great, too!

Ross, several years ago after R&R mag posted a photo of your 614 dressed up as the "21st Century Limited" power, I made that suggestion, altering her to look like a Niagara, to someone at the mag. It wasn't well received.

Point of clarification: Union Pacific Railroad hasn't sold an excursion ticket or set the price of one in decades. Ticket prices are set by the sponsoring organizations. Some mark them up a whole lot, others not so much, but UP is neither setting the price nor getting the revenue.

Another note on ticket prices: don't forget to correct for inflation. I just spent a little time with an inflation calculator and learned the following:

What cost $20 in 1970 cost $100.76 in 2005.
What cost $50 in 1970 cost $251.90 in 2005.

It also adds up over shorter time horizons:

What cost $100 in 1990 would cost $148.73 in 2005.