Just a couple of thoughts based on some personal frustration:

* I noticed in many of the above comments that the discussion is focused on standard gauge equipment. Even at a perceived lower cost to acquire, move, and restore, many of the same issues apply to the smaller gauges as depicted for standard gauge. Again, my background has been in the 3' gauge sector of the community.

* I do have personal experience in trying to generate interest within a rather wealthy community to support engines they own. I had no luck at all. I tried every angle. Its true, fast cars are of more an interest to this sector. As are boats to include sail and power, old and new. But their money also goes towards houses in the Hamptons. Or supporting the arts. Or supporting some new wing on a hospital.

* While locomotives, or railroad cars, are difficult to move or to simply "have" in one's collection, they shouldn't be. Again, I look at the wooden boat market. How many of us have ever read Wooden Boat magazine? These guys have their acts together and I have pointed this out in the past. Ask yourself, is owning and maintaining a 100 year old 40 foot sail boat cheaper and easier to do that than owning a 100 year old locomotive?

* What do the wooden boat people have that we don't in the rail preservation community? In short, they have a community and one that works well together. They have the wooden boat school. They have wooden boat friendly marinas. Many of the larger boats have owners who drop tons of money into them. They have well financed societies or non-profits who raise millions to build a brand new replica. They have a great magazine. They strive to maintain the art of wooden boat building and repair.

* The answer to the problem we are discussing is not one of money, time, volunteers, etc. Its not jacking or blocking or cranes, etc. The problems are organization and perception. Money, time, and people are available, but they are just not captured in some workable manner. Rather we see infighting within groups, failed restoration attempts, good intentions gone bad, equipment rotting even as the owners watches, etc.

* So, what is the solution? Equipment owners have to get organized. An organization made up of equipment owners to include non-profits, for-profits, individuals, etc must be established. Yards to store equipment, set up like boat yards, have to be established around the country, which will safely and securely store equipment. Perception must be improved via a magazine similar to Wooden Boat. There's a lot of success stories out there, but they are only recognized on a regional basis by the local population. Schools must be set up to preserve the talents needed to restore and maintain locomotives and rolling stock.

Is the above doable? Shoot if the wooden boat guys can do it, why can't we??

J.R.

Right on Mr. May and I would like to nominate you as the Founding Chairman of the new organization!!
When I first got bitten by the steam "bug" 'lo those many years ago I was immediately struck by how little accord there was amongst others interested in steam preservation/operation. My impression was that most of the then (1957-1963) existing NRHS,RRE and other organizations were almost exclusively interested in a monthly meeting where they all sat around and watched old movies or slides and spent a lot of time/energy on petty politics within the organization. Very very few cared about actually preserving/operating anything and that's why I decided very early on that to do what I had in mind we'd need to build our own organization(s) from the ground up to get the job(s) done!!
Seems to me that it's only gotten worse over the years with the NRHS now withering on the vine and most of the others shadows of thier former ineffective selves??
Mr. May is bang on. I live not far from the Antique Boat Museum in Clayton,NY (www.abm.org) which is dedicated to the preservation/display/operation of old wooden pleasure boats. Over the last 30 years it has grown into a world class attraction and raised/invested approx. $25 million dollars in itself.
Sure wish we could replicate that but I'm afraid it ain't gonna happen!! Sure hope I'm proven wrong!!
Ross Rowland

Ross:
Many thanks for the nomination. Again, what I propose is an organization of the equipment owners to improve the perception of equipment ownership to make it more viable to a larger audience to own equipment and to care for it. I think its doable. And as to raising big bucks? How much did you raise for the first Freedom Train? Theres the proof that it is possible.

I would just like to make one comment regarding NRHS type organizations. They preserve history by passing on information whether it be word of mouth, pictures, new books, etc. I've always been more interested in equipment and operation and knew little of the operation that equipment may have come from. I think this is where organizations such as NRHS and members of such historical societies play a key role and are an important element of the community. They fill in the blanks, keeping memories alive.

Oh well, back to work here.
J.R.

Just a couple of thoughts based on some personal frustration:



I suggest that the same unfunded liability rules apply whether the artifact is broad or narrow guage, steam traction or steam, passenger or freight.



I have had the interesting experience of being involved in representing the humanities interests as part of our local Arts & Humanities Council. IMHO the big difference between railway preservation and the arts centers on how we relate what we do to the community at large. Much of the programming at our Museum focuses on how the artifact impacted the community. Its not about the trolleys, its about the trolley's impact on community development. And that resonates with funders. We still can't compete with the visibility of the symphony hall and the hospital, but we've moved the impression above "boys playing with toys".



Based on my experience with my cousins sailboat and our trolleys, my cousin has the easier job.



Check out the resources available through the Association of Railway Museums.

Wesley

Many years ago, in the early 1990's, Locomotive & Railway Preservation magazine editor Mark Smith attempted to start a "Railway Heritage Trust" organization. Mark's vision was the creation of an entity that would serve the Railway Preservation movement in a manner similar to what the National Trust for Historic Preservation does for architectural preservation. The "Trust" would have served as a political lobbying and advocacy organization, and would have provided training & education, shared information, and accreditation for it's members (and a glossy magazine, L&RP). It was not intended to replace either TRAIN or ARM, but to serve as a supplement to them. Mark had formed a loose committee of 20 or so people that he considered leaders in the rail preservation field. I had obtained a venue and sponsorship for an organizational meeting, but unfortately no consenus was reached within the committee.
Perhaps it's time to pull Mark's idea out of the closet and dust it off. Maybe we've matured enough to make it work this time..................

Look, folks, the comparison between cars/boats and railroads is truly an apples/oranges comparison.

If I buy an MG, a Ferrari, a Facel Vega, a Bentley, a Karmann Ghia, a Corvette, a Stanley Steamer, whatever, and I repair it to standards acceptable to the state licensing agency and an insurance issuer, I can then drive said vehicle anywhere. ANYWHERE. If I want to drive fast, I can drive to a drag strip or race track and indulge myself at a price. Not only that, I get a piece of paper from the state telling me I own said car.

A boat--ditto. Be it a canoe, a cabin cruiser, or a yacht, I can pilot it anywhere I choose within reason (no nuclear power plant intakes, no beaching it, no oil tankers on big rocks, etc.).

A plane--Piper Cub, DC3, Lear Gulfstream--I can fly anywhere withing certain restrictions, and frankly you're not even required to file a flight plan in many cases. Fly up to Portland because the lobster content in your blood is low? Just pony up for the fuel.

Same for a Winnebago, a tour bus--hell, even tanks or armored personnel carriers if you have the real estate upon which to run.

Now, compare that for the onerous restrictions upon you if/when you fix up your 4-8-4 or E8 duo. Expenses aside, even if you own your own freakin' railroad, it's difficult. Ask Jerry Jacobson. Ask Andrew Muller. Ask Bennett Levin. No longer, if you have a freshly-repaired Berkshire, do you figure out which railroad in town is the friendliest and most hospitable and ask the local RFE if they can let you haul a few freights up the local hill, or head up the point of the fast freight. Nope, it's all one railroad, one that will fall back on Code 230, the rule book, and insurance requirements to make you "go away".

Given the choices, why in heck would I even *think* of trying to fix up a steam locomotive or passenger car if I didn't also own the whole darned railroad in the first place?

We were able to raise $7.5 million (1974 dollars= approx. $20million 2007 dollars) in corporate sponsorships from Pepsi,GM,Kraft Foods, Prudential Insurance but they spent thier dollars more as an advertising investment than a contribution to preservation.
Seems to me it's probably at least a little bit of mixing apples and oranges???
If we are successful in getting the critical sponsorships to make the YRE a reality I'm hopeful that at its 100 plus display sites across America it will provide an effective venue for those neighboring railroad preservation entities that wish to participate,to come and make good use of YRE's expected 15,000 daily visitors to tell thier stories???
Time will tell.
Ross Rowland

> Given the choices, why in heck would I even *think* of trying to fix up a
> steam locomotive or passenger car

There are vast number of guys who have an interest in trains but do not realize ownership is a viable option. Again, its perception.

And why would a guy own a locomotive rather than a sail boat or collector car? Well, why do I own a 1930 Porter rather than a newer Jaguar? Or a sail boat?

Because that's what I wanted to own. Its where I want to spend my money and spare time. It was only through my past experiences that I knew such ownership was doable. The idea is to get that word out. This IS a doable hobby. Too few people know that. This is the issue that must change.

J.R.

Gary Gray raises an important and timely question.
I have long felt that we should somehow form a Heritage Trust for the purpose of being the organization that would insure the long term viability of preserving/operating these steam machines we so adore.
Seems to me it could/should fund the creation of a central location (or make a "deal" to make use of a currently existing suitable facility??) where a representative cross-section of loco's. would be housed along with enough appropriate cars to form a suitable train and have an endowment large enough to assure its long term viability.
It would be financed by a few well heeled steam lovers through thier estates as they pass-on and others who believe in the mission.
I'm sorry to say that even though it makes sense I've not been able yet to get any traction with the relatively few "well heeled" individuals I've approached with the concept, and some of them have now passed on.
I would say that something like this is critical if there's going to be any chance for mainline steam to be still running in say 2100???
It sure didn't take long for NS to dump the fires on thier program after Mr. Claytor died, and I must tell you that in all likelyhood the same will happen when the few steam champions still with us check out unless there's been provisions made before hand so that thier wishes will be kept going after they've departed. At least that's how I see it.
Ross Rowland

Ross -

And some times the provisions made before hand do not work either. Harry Murphy was President of the Burlington and approved restoration work on O5B class 4-8-4 #5632. But once Mr. Murphy retired, his successor stopped the restoration and eventually disposed of the Northern.

I agree that a Railway Heritage & Preservation Foundation is the way to go. And the most important first step, is to set the RH&PF up as a not-for-profit organization. Yet it is tough getting interested parties together from around the country to discuss what needs to be done to set up such an organization. But I think that the internet is a way to bring such people together. It was not in place in the early `90's when Mark Smith tried to get a similar style group on track. Today it is. Let's use it. And let's get going!

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

.

> Organizations are already in existence for us in the form of TRAIN and
> ARM. Any more would only serve to dilute any influence we
> might have, rather than increase it.

If this was true, we would not be having the discussion. I think they each serve a purpose, but is not what I have in mind.

Seems to be a lot of nay sayers to the concept. And that's fine, but it is apparent we have a problem within the preservation community. What we are doing is apparently not enough. Thus, we need ideas and then those ideas must be put into action.

Resurrection of Rwy Preservation News as a magazine should be step one. Its content should be similar to what is seen in WB. By the way, WB rarely has a bikini clad blond on its cover or anywhere between the covers. The cover photos are usually beautiful pictures of boats. RyPN had similar cover photos.

J.R.

.

I agree! ARM is making progress with a great quarterly and an effective annual conference. "Recommended Practices" offer guidelines for effective administration and conservation. We don't need another bureaucracy.

http://www.railwaymuseums.org/

Wesley

Kelly:
I live on the Jersey shore, grew up in Manasquan (on the ocean) and my office is still in town. I've had boats in the past, but resorted back to steam locomotives.

I grew up at Pine Creek (have my NJ blue seal engineers license) and my high school was just a few miles away. A great ice breaker with any girl was to invite them out for a cab ride. Trust me, it worked. Even as I got older, and married, it was a bad day if I did not get at least one nice looking gal up in the cab. I've been interviewed any number of times by the local papers and when asked why I run steam locomotives, my response was always "its a great way to meet girls." Of course they never quoted me in print....but that's another story. No jokes here guys, the girls were always good looking.

In all fairness, the engines we ran were only in the 30 to 50 ton range, not the big standard gauge stuff. Not as intimidating for a "guest."

Bottom line is that a steam locomotive is a conversation piece. No different than a sail boat or sports car. Heck, 99% of the time the boat never leaves the dock and the car never leaves the garage.

With the right marketing, the perception of ownership of rail equipment could be improved. Or put another way, it must be improved in order to save more equipment.

J.R.