1998 in Hoboken? That should have been 25K, 60 cycle AC.

The old (1928?) DL&W electrification was 3000 VDC. The old PRR and Reading lines were 11K, 25 cycle. Those are catenary voltages, but as Alan pointed out, the transmission lines are physically up higher. They do in fact carry much higher voltages; I think the PRR transmission lines were 330K, and some of the utilities go still higher yet.

I had a brief "brush" with 480 at work maybe ten years ago. Once was enough; one has to respect this stuff, even 115.

I'm not an electrician and don't want to be. It was 1998 and it was Hoboken yard and yes it was the catenary that got him. Whatever voltage/current it is I could care less--all I know is you need to stay well away from it!!! That's all I need to know!!
Ross Rowland

Yes, your right Ross, STAY AWAY.

It is either 12 kv 25 cycle or 25 kv 60 cycle. I am not sure where or if there is a break between Newark and Hoboken, but I know the Jersey coast line is 25kv 60 cycle.

The railroads transmission voltage is 132kv, while utility's can go as high as 750kv.

OK, now for some science content;

The higher the AC voltage the more likely and I'll use the term loosely, a chance one could survive. The reason is that when a short occurs, eg. Hand or head to feet. A large amount energy is released based on the amount of fault current that a given system can deliver. Thus, the electrical energy causes a blast effect, blasting a human body clear of the electrical connection. However, significant damage is done, unlike a lower voltage that could not release you and continue to cook you!

Another unique property is that the higher the cycles the more likely the current is going to travel across the skin then through it. This is why DC voltage is so nasty, eg. third rail contacts, the DC tends to burrow in.

Lastly, the amount of energy needed to light a 60 watt incandescent bulb is 10 times more then what is needed to kill you!

Hmmm, now where did I put that pantograph?

Scott

Gentlemen,

Overnight this topic got "sidetracked" into a debate on tort reform. I removed four posts. Any attempt to revive that debate will result in this topic being locked.

Kevin

I would also point out that on the UP, NS or any other major carrier it is standard procedure to relieve a crew that has been involved in a grade crossing/pedestrian incident with a fresh crew. The relieved crew then remains out of service until they have been debriefed. Few of our organizations have that luxury. I was conductor on a TVRM train that was involved in a severe non-fatal grade crossing incident. We were delayed for almost an hour while the investigation took place. Having no relief crew available, we continued our trip and yarded the train, then continued the incident investigation.

Accident response depends on where you are. Organizations like TVRM will have short response times due to their location in an urban area. Places like EBT, C&TSRR or D&SRR? Emergency response may well take 5-10 minutes or longer depending on location.

That trespasser was lucky to have his head intact coming in contact with the overhead. Probably about 15 years ago, an Amtrak engineer out of Richmond was preparing to take a train from either Boston or NY on South from WUS. the windshield on his F40 was dirty, so he decided to climb up on the short hood and clean it with water and paper towels. He forgot he was under the NEC catenary and stood up a little too far and either contacted the wire or got close enough to it to attract an arc. 11K volts AC instantly boiled the liquid in his head, causing it to literally explode (at least it was quick). Yeah, stay away!

Since I've decided I don't care anymore, I'm going to be totally honest and tell you that at least one jerk of a CSX trainmaster I know has on more than one occasion tried to bully a crew involved in a fatality into continuing on with the train, rather than be relieved and given time off per "Critical Incident" guidelines. Also, while a crew member is entitled to take off up to 5 days paid for such an event, EAP counselors and company officials will try and pressure employees to take only a couple of days off when involved in a fatality. There is no charitable attitude about this stuff at CSX.

That's really neither fair nor accurate. If there's a liability exposure to the insurance and the carrier didn't settle with the claimant within the liability policy limits and then the other party sued and was awarded damages in excess of the limits of the liability coverage, the insured person is now liable for the difference and the insurance company then is in violation of a breech of policy based on the insurance laws in probably any state in the country. The insurance company in such a case has the exposure for liability on the part of the claimant and if they deny just because the insured wants them to, they have breeched the contract with the insured as well as violating several state statues. It's one of the many things you get liability coverage for, to protect your best interests, sometimes in contrast to the way you want it to wind up. If the carrier fights it and suddenly the other person wins beyond your liability coverage limits, many laws have now been broken by the insurance company. That's the laws, not the insurance companies, that have always driven this. I work in the industry and I find it funny how few people really have no idea about insurance works, yet how many of the same people are convinced that they do.

A friend does "First Responder" training. First responders keep people alive until the ambulance with EMTs shows up. He says hikers/outdoorsmen require completely different training than city people. One will see heart attacks and auto accidents, the other, falls and hypothermia. What's more, it's the difference between help being 10 minutes away, and 10 MILES away!

So what should train crews know how to do and be equipped to deal with?

From a reliable source in Michigan.... circa 12/29/07

"It was released today that the driver of the vehicle, Jennifer Mae VanBuskirk, 31, one of the two who died in the crash, was drunk and under the influence of marijuana."

Also, the line used for this event was a regular freight railroad, albeit not a very busy one.

Bob H

Ideally, for a major event such as a Santa train you might consider actually having EMTs on the train. Back when TVRM ran the Autumn Leaf Specials on the NS, we regularly carried EMTs on the train to tend to minor injuries and be present just in case of more serious ailments. That may have been a Southern Railway policy-I don't know for sure. That did turn out to be handy back in 1984 when the 765 struck a dump truck at an unmarked crossing. EMTs immediately detrained and treated the driver. After a lengthy delay, the train continued on minus the EMTs.

Bottom line-any major event that your organization hosts should have the need for on site EMTs or First Responders considered. Since I have left TVRM, my understanding is that two of the fellows that regularly volunteer there in train service have gone on to get First Responder training. I should imagine that crews should have access to defibrillator devices and training to use them in case of necessity. We have at least one defibrillator on each floor of the court building I work in and staff who are qualified to operate them.

I know on our New River excursions we have emt/paramedic teams stationed every 5 or so cars. We also have a safety team which handles all the safety aspects on the train as well as a dispatch center. This has paid off numerous times as we have had small medical incidents on the train. I believe its a big part in why CSX still lets up run.

Everybody , personal, orgs, or business, should have a written, practiced emergency management plan.
It should include any possible situation from minor injuries, to disasters (hurricanes, fire, etc) The written plans should be EVERYWHERE in a sealed folders, ready to bust open at a moments notice. A cheap disposable camera in the first aid kit (plenty of inspected ones) to doc any incidents
Just like a fire extinguisher (ya'll got plenty of inspected ones too, right?) it is visible, available, and has all the right answers in it.
Adopting a good risk assesment program is a must too. I'm talking JSA's (job safety analysis) on every job (actually task), from the office to the end of the line (drilling holes, sweeping floors, etc) all safety equipment defined
Having procedures, plans, logs, training records and documentation is the "case of AK-47s" you need if the vultures do come circlin'
All of these are "low hanging fruit" that can done for no or low costs, over half a dozen winter sessions at the local "beanery bar" with a good group of people.
Sometimes the worse disasters are the simplest and easiest to prevent.
How could any of us look a fellow member in the face and see an eye knocked out from weed eating the depot without safety glasses and not wish you had been a butthead and made him the glasses on. worse yet, his 17 year old daughter.

I have a lot of experience in this EHS & Risk stuff and would share all I have.
just ask

sorry, my safety rant

dr

TVRM uses what we call "Crash Kits" and any train movement that leaves TVRM property is required to have one on board. On trains that I worked as Conductor, the kit was typically kept aboard the commissary car since the responsibility of gathering incident data falls to the Conductor. It also made sense since the commissary car was almost always located mid-train, had a large storage locker in which a base radio unit was located along with the medical kit and the fire extinguishers.

Each Crash Kit is a compartmentalized, stainless steel clipboard. Its contents are a disposable camera, Dictaphone with spare tape and batteries, pen chained to the box, accident report forms and a list of emergency telephone numbers and instructions taped to the inside lid of the box. I (unfortunately) had plenty of occasion to use the kit-mostly on board minor injuries.

We also recognized some hazards unique to our operation and worked to develop emergency policies to deal with them. The most dangerous one involves the Whiteside Tunnel through Missionary Ridge. Our concern was risks to passengers and crew should a steam powered train stall out or derail inside the tunnel. The initial plan that we developed was this:

Once the train stalls out, the engineman will attempt to release the brakes and pull the train out. If this cannot be accomplished within one minute, the conductor shall immediately commence setting sufficient hand brakes to hold the train and the fireman will uncouple the locomotive from the train. The fireman will remain with the train to assist the conductor in all cases. Once it is determined that no cars have derailed, the train crew will bleed air from all brake lines and tanks, holding the train with hand brakes alone. The locomotive will then be backed into the tunnel and coupled to the train. Hand brakes will then be released and the locomotive will pull the train clear of the tunnel and stop. Each car will be equipped with emergency lighting and each train will be provided with lanterns or flashlights.

In the event that the locomotive cannot be removed from the tunnel, the crew will dump the fire and the passengers evacuated if possible. We did test this with an actual train and a group of employees and volunteers. There is sufficient room between the cars and tunnel walls to allow able bodied persons to leave the train and make their way through the tunnel. We also noted that the air conditioned cars are relatively air tight and could be used as a safe haven for passengers that cannot be removed from the train. They could be kept there until the fire department arrives.

We also noted the difficulty in visually locating the various valve handles on the air brake system under the cars in these conditions. As a result, the railroad has since repainted the handles with bright florescent paint (lime green) to improve their visibility. These plans have been passed on to the Chattanooga Fire Department and they have been given the location of the tunnel so that they know how to get to the specific location if called. The plans are located at each depot and in the main shop office.

We have similar packages on board the streetcars of Old Pueblo Trolley. We had an incident just yesterday where a streetcar was involved in a minor collision with a motor vehicle. The operator provided the police report and obtained the motorist's information as required and photographs were taken. There still remains some question as to who was at fault.

There will also be a separate Board of Inquiry held to determine whether or not the operator should bear any fault for the incident. This Board is held following any accident involving OPT streetcars, regardless of whether or not the police report assigns primary fault to the operator or motorist. The Board of Inquiry will determine whether the operator should be sanctioned and required to take remedial training or not. I had an interesting situation last year as I was operating a car that was involved in a traffic collision. Normally, as Training Department Manager I would have sat on the Board anyways but in this case, I was on the other side of the table. The police report assigned primary fault to the motorist and the data collected indicated plainly that the motorist's actions were the chief contributing cause of the collision. After literally only about three minutes, the finding of the Board was that there was nothing reasonable that I could have done to prevent the collision-case closed. I should note that the Board always includes a representative of upper management (in this case, the president himself), the Safety Officer and the Training Department Manager at a minimum.

As for fire safety, it is a chief concern. Each car is equipped with TWO extinguishers-one at each end of the car. The office has an extinguisher as well as a fire blanket. Extinguishers are required to be inspected prior to each day's operation as well as the crash packet and first aid kit on each car-no car is permitted to leave the barn without these items.

To add a bit to what's already said, it's also important to train your crews on the basic do's and dont's for more serious incidents when they occur. Any operation should have some sort of Company Officer on duty or on call while trains are rolling, to which ultimate authority is always delegated. If something happens, that officer needs to get on scene ASAP to act as the liason between the responders and the organization operating the train. This can come in handy very frequently ... such as when local Law Enforcement doesn't understand the regulations involving train-vehicle, or train-trespasser, incidents and tries to take a crew for drug and alcohol testing (which the FRA states are only done if the CARRIER believes there is probable cause to test the crew). Having an Officer of the organization there to explain those things (if they apply), can help the investigation along and avoid headaches later.

It's also important that crews know some basic information.

First, for locomotive engineers ... always show your Federal ENGINEER'S license to the authorities, never your state-issued driver's license. If you show your driver's license, there's the chance the incident may somehow end up on your driving record, and affect your auto insurance. Most LEO's won't be familiar with an engineer's license, but explain (politely, of course), that your FRA certificate is what you need to operate the train, and that's what you are showing them. Some officers (mostly because they don't understand the federal licensing requirements) will insist on seeing some sort of photo ID, and that's why it's good to have a Company official on the scene to handle those conversations.

For everyone else on the train (engineers, brakeman, conductors, etc). Do NOT talk to the press. Since many organizations are staffed by volunteers who are only trying to help, this one can get tricky. But, it's in the crew's best interest to keep their mouths shut if the press shows up. Give statements to the proper authorities, but all other questions should be referred back to the official spokesperson for the organization. Even the most benign statement, meant to defend the company or crew can be misquoted and come back to haunt you if the other party files a lawsuit. Releasing just your name to the press also increases the chances that you'll be named specifically in the lawsuit. It's far better to lessen the chances of a newspaper or TV quote being used against you, by simply saying, "No comment." Don't make the ambulance-chasing lawyers' job of suing you any easier ... keeping quiet protects not just the orgnaization, but the individual crew members as well.