> Nelson Blount made an attempt to grab one
> from Sterling Wire sometime in the early
> 60's. Blount was a good friend of Ron Ziel,
> whose notable book, "Twilight of Steam
> Locomotives" has a detailed photoessay
> on "The Death of 6316". Ron's work
> encouraged Blountto try to rescue a CB&Q
> 2-10-4, but when he got there all that was
> left were two being used as stationary
> boilers, and the drivers had been cut off
> along with running gear. I read that
> eventually one of the locos exploded and
> that ended that.
> Ziel's "Twilight" is a terrific
> book. In looking at it in 2002, it is
> interesting to see how many locomotives were
> still available for rescue in 1963, and even
> more interesting is how many found
> protection and survive to this day. There is
> also the converse, and Ziel documented
> endless lines of Clinchfield articulateds,
> Bigboys, and other mainline locos awaiting
> the torch. Sterling Wire would have been
> America's Barry Yard. It was site
> destruction site of GTW, NKP, CB&Q, and
> Lord only knows what other steam. Great
> Northern had rows of Mikes set up for
> unfreezing ore at the same time.

> Would somebody kindly invent a useful time
> machine?
Just for anyones info.#6319 was the last Q Texas!

Can anyone shed any light on the Clinchfield Challengers (built 1947) that sat at Erwin, Tenn. (shown in Ziel's book) during the 1960s, and were apparently moved to Florida in 1970-71 for scrapping? I had heard they were kept on the property until their equipment trusts ran out.

hpincus@mindspring.com

Even as plans were being made for the first Reading Iron Horse Ramble in 1959, the nine surviving G-3 4-6-2's (the last 4-6-2's built in the country) were being shipped off to Luria Brothers. Rumor has it the Reading offered one to several on-line cities, but no one wanted one. They would have been fine excursion engines, able to run just about anywhere on the system. They were low mileage engines, having only been run from 1948 to 1952 on the RDG, with a few getting additional miles on the PRSL until about 1956.

K4s1361@hotmail.com

Add to the list two N&W Y6b's 2174 and 2197 (as my memory recalls) that languished in a Roanoke scrap yard until the mid 70's. The previous owner had held onto the last two, but a new owner had them cut up immediately.

Also by the late 60's the C&O scrap line at Russell, KY had withered to 4-8-4 614 (then numbered as 611), 2-8-2 1189 (the last K3 Mikado), two 2-8-4's (2705 and another whose number escapes me), 2-6-6-2 1309 and 2-6-6-6 1604.
1604 was donated to the Roanoke Transportation Museum in the late 60's, and ultimately wound up at the B&O Museum. However, sometime in the early 70's the second 2-8-4 and 1189 were cut up. The rest of the group was ultimately moved to the B&O Museum. Chessie traded 614 to Ross Rowland in exchange for fire damaged RDG 2101, but the others are still at the B&O Museum.


kevingillespie@usa.net

> Can anyone shed any light on the Clinchfield
> Challengers (built 1947) that sat at Erwin,
> Tenn. (shown in Ziel's book) during the
> 1960s, and were apparently moved to Florida
> in 1970-71 for scrapping? I had heard they
> were kept on the property until their
> equipment trusts ran out.

I have Ziel's book, and remember the photos. However, I wonder if they lasted that long. The reason I ask the question is that by 1968 or 69, the Clinchfield was under the management of Tom Moore, who was an unabashed steam fan, and pulled #1 out of the park in Erwin for restoration to service. He also tried to restore C&O 2-8-4 2716 to operation before being forced out over questionable accounting irregularities. I can't imagine Moore sending the entire group to scrap with his pro-steam sentiments.


kevingillespie@usa.net

Lafayette definately has an unenviable record. there are several instances where some little sugar dinksters were saved by individuals here and there in the 40s-50s, and were then scrapped unbeknownst to their owners.(Many were hauled off whole) LaSalles' 4-4-0 was literally stolen by scrapping. Apparently salvage theft was a thriving and accepted local practice.

The same folks that saved the bulk of WT Carter equipment understood they had a deal on three davenport 0-6-0s at Malvern Ar. Just before they went to get them, money in hand, the scrapper showed up with lowboys, and refused to sell them.
In 1976. They had cute little slope back tenders, but el Diablo Scrapman was hell bent on scrapping them anyway, despite the double the salvage value offer.

Merriweather Gravel (nee Gifford Hill) at Lewisville, Ar, scrapped a three truck shay that had originally come off the old Valley Lumber operation at Reader. About 1976.

Several N&W Y6s were scrapped in, you guessed it, 1976
(so much for the idea that the Bicentinnial raised general awareness about preservation)

BTW If something isn't done soon, Fordyce and Princeton 2-8-0 101(ex TAG) will soon join them.


lorija799@aol.com

> I have Ziel's book, and remember the photos.
> However, I wonder if they lasted that long.
> The reason I ask the question is that by
> 1968 or 69, the Clinchfield was under the
> management of Tom Moore, who was an
> unabashed steam fan, and pulled #1 out of
> the park in Erwin for restoration to
> service. He also tried to restore C&O
> 2-8-4 2716 to operation before being forced
> out over questionable accounting
> irregularities. I can't imagine Moore
> sending the entire group to scrap with his
> pro-steam sentiments.

They may have been too expensive to restore, or may have been off-property by then. I saw a few photos of the CC&O locos being cut up in Fla., and the prints carried a 1970 date. The cross-section through the firebox was quite visible-- crown sheet and stays, etc. I will try to locate those shots.


hpincus@mindspring.com

> BTW If something isn't done soon, Fordyce
> and Princeton 2-8-0 101(ex TAG) will soon
> join them.

Tell us more about this engine, for example, its history, its location, and who owns it. To lose any steam engine in the 21st century would be nothing short of a tragedy.


kevingillespie@usa.net

> Tell us more about this engine, for example,
> its history, its location, and who owns it.
> To lose any steam engine in the 21st century
> would be nothing short of a tragedy.

F&P 101 is a 70 ton Baldwin catalog consolidation, very similar to the engines running in Cuba. It is at Little Rock, Ar. engine was in the park there, and was sold to two local railfans that wanted to do a dinner train. At least two real operations already experienced at restoring and running steam tried to get the engine at that time, but the locals wound up with it. After allowing every foamer in the area to take a piece home to "fix", one of the owners was divorced. The property on which it sits has been sold, and I haven't the foggiest who to get ahold of. A recent effort to locate its parts, including side rods, was a failure.


lorija799@aol.com

I read this entire thread with much interest and (unless I missed it) no one mentioned Dick Jenson's GTW Pacific. I believe the former excursion star was cut up in 1987 after a dispute between Jenson and METRA. I believe Jenson was even offered 15,000 dollars for it but refused the offer, even as the scrappers were liting their torches. This perhaps the saddest scrapping story of recent memory, simply beause one man's arrogance led to the destruction of a fine machine.

Dave Crosby

> I read this entire thread with much interest
> and (unless I missed it) no one mentioned
> Dick Jenson's GTW Pacific. I believe the
> former excursion star was cut up in 1987
> after a dispute between Jenson and METRA. I
> believe Jenson was even offered 15,000
> dollars for it but refused the offer, even
> as the scrappers were liting their torches.
> This perhaps the saddest scrapping story of
> recent memory, simply beause one man's
> arrogance led to the destruction of a fine
> machine.

> Dave Crosby

Dave,
The orignal posted forbids anyone to mention Mr. Jensen in this thread. I have a B&W I took of 5629 at Durand in 1957(I was a kid), and my dad has a movie of three trains there also. I used part of the clip showing a 4-8-4 (6315) departing in my new 6325 video which will be ready in a couple of months. ]
Don't forget about the Burlington 5632 also Dave! I never got to see that one unfortunately.
Steamingly,
Greg Scholl


Videos and such
sales@gregschollvideo.com

Truly, the Jensen locomotives are the saddest experience in railfan preservation in the past 30 years. It seems really easy to crucify Jensen for the loss of both locomotives, and I'm not intending to let him off the hook, but when the Burlington had had enough of the o-5, nobody else jumped up with their own cash to save the loco. Jensen did run the locos longer than their home roads. The stupidity that led to their ultimate demise is not his alone however. Please spread liberal doses of pig-headed evil ignorance on the agencies that cut the locos up. THere was no justification in either case.



glueck@saturn.caps.maine.edu

Aww Jeez

Now I feel silly, mised that line in Rob's opening post. Perhaps honorable mention should go to the New Haven "Jets" (electric yes, but steam generates electricity) that were lost in the 60's i think....

Dave Crosby

> Truly, the Jensen locomotives are the
> saddest experience in railfan preservation
> in the past 30 years. It seems really easy
> to crucify Jensen for the loss of both
> locomotives, and I'm not intending to let
> him off the hook, but when the Burlington
> had had enough of the o-5, nobody else
> jumped up with their own cash to save the
> loco. Jensen did run the locos longer than
> their home roads. The stupidity that led to
> their ultimate demise is not his alone
> however. Please spread liberal doses of
> pig-headed evil ignorance on the agencies
> that cut the locos up. THere was no
> justification in either case.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Mr. Jensen was certainly not an easy person to deal with but the loss of both the Burlington 4-8-4 and the Grand Trunk Western 4-6-2 should NEVER have happended. In the case of the later, I recall writing a letter to Metra asking that the locomotive not be scrapped. The reply I got was typical of railroad management. METRA tried to justify the upcoming carnage by stating that they had tried to get IRyM to purchase the locomotive, plus Mr. Jensen removed the brasses from the wheels so the locomotive could not be moved, plus there was another GTW Pacific preserved so the loss of this particular engine was no big deal.

First of all, it WAS Mr. Jensen's locomotive and he could sell it to whomever he wanted to (or in his case) not sell it if he chose.

Second, true the brasses were removed but the engine could have been dragged out of the area at Blue Island that METRA had to have, if that was necessary (and may well have been in this case.) Not a good choice but certainly better than the one that METRA eventually decided on.

Third, the other GTW Pacific alluded to was not the same class (K4b instead of K4a) and although the differnces might have been minor, there WERE differences (one obvious difference is that the K4b class had all weather cabs whereas the K4a's did not.) This argument about "another engine in existance" would have been like saying it was OK to scrap Pennsy K4 #1361 because of the other engine at the RR Museum of Pennsylvania, or Milwaukee Road 4-8-4 #265 because of sister engine #261 or of N&W 4-8-0 M class #475 because of preserved sister engine #433.

What is really interesting is what have happened if METRA had just left the engine in place where it was. No building was ever built on its exact site (a reason why it supposedly HAD to be moved) but just materials would have surrounded it and METRA crews could have worked around it without too much difficulty. Then a few years later, Mr. Jensen passed away and IRyM (or some other museum) would have ended up with the engine which would have been saved for posterity. Plus METRA could have felt proud that they had a hand in the engines preservation instead of having the black mark against its corporate name that it has now.

midlandblb@cs.com

I recall writing a letter to
> Metra asking that the locomotive not be
> scrapped. The reply I got was typical of
> railroad management. METRA tried to justify
> the upcoming carnage by stating that they
> had tried to get IRyM to purchase the
> locomotive, plus Mr. Jensen removed the
> brasses from the wheels so the locomotive
> could not be moved, plus there was another
> GTW Pacific preserved so the loss of this
> particular engine was no big deal.

My understanding is that IRM was trying up to the last minute to get that engine one way or another, and that they almost had an agreement worked out with Metra when a key player on the Metra side went on vacation and the locomotive was cut up in that person's absence. It's still a subject of some bitterness there.

And indeed, nothing has been built on the site where the 5629 sat.

sbgreig_m1@yahoo.com