Hmmm,

I wonder if that 20 cylinder beast would fit in a GG1!

When I was in high school, I scoffed at history. Now, I can't get enough of it. The PC merger and subsequent failure is interesting stuff.

Scott

I feel honored, I have received a retort from Mr. Alexander. I fully agree with you, history should not be forgotten. My brother (a quite serious amatuer historian) is fond of saying two things related to history:
1. Those who don't know it are doomed to repeat it (as you said) and...
2. If history teaches us anything its that we learn nothing from history.

Please remember, most of my comments in my second posting were tongue in cheek, in fact I'm surprised that I heard from no one about NYC Hudsons (actually a very fine locomotive, but I never said that and will deny I just wrote that).

Concerning history and Penn Central I did write "PC is probably worthy of some small recognition, if not to remember what was at the time the largest corporate bankruptcy in world history. PC certainly had a major impact on railroading, not just on the PRR/NYC and in the NE but throughout the US. So it probably should be remembered." It should especially be remembered in the written words of books an articles for the important place it held in history and lessons to be learned.

However, I don't necessarily feel a need for a large object in a museum staring at me in PC regalia to teach me about that history. Conversely, I would not be opposed to it either. Simply, it is not my favorite 5 years of NE railroading. (I am estimating its tenure, I no longer remember its exact length of its' corporate life here on this planet).

I much prefer to remember PRR, NYC and CR, they were much happier times. I was not calling for any kind of revisionist history or any attempt to wipe them from the corporate memory banks of all present and future professioal and amatuer historians. I think that you may have over reached there. But you may be reacting to a larger series of events/statements than these postings which were originally about a lonely PRR SD45 in need of a good home (which I agree with your earlier posting about it going to Altoona).

As always, you make me think, and for that I can truly and honestly say, Thank you.

Long Live PC! [on page 343 of some book somewhere on some shelf that I can't reach :-) ]

I feel honored, I have received a retort from Mr. Alexander. I fully agree with you, history should not be forgotten. My brother (a quite serious amatuer historian) is fond of saying two things related to history:
1. Those who don't know it are doomed to repeat it (as you said) and...
2. If history teaches us anything its that we learn nothing from history.

Please remember, most of my comments in my second posting were tongue in cheek, in fact I'm surprised that I heard from no one about NYC Hudsons (actually a very fine locomotive, but I never said that and will deny I just wrote that).

Concerning history and Penn Central I did write "PC is probably worthy of some small recognition, if not to remember what was at the time the largest corporate bankruptcy in world history. PC certainly had a major impact on railroading, not just on the PRR/NYC and in the NE but throughout the US. So it probably should be remembered." I would like to ammend that to read 'it should be remembered.' It should especially be remembered in the written words of books and articles for the important place it held in history and lessons to be learned.

However, I don't necessarily feel a need for a large object in a museum staring at me in PC regalia to teach me about that history. Conversely, I would not be opposed to it either. Simply, it is not my favorite 5 years of NE railroading. (I am estimating its tenure, I no longer remember its exact length of its' corporate life here on this planet).

I much prefer to remember PRR, NYC and CR, they were much happier times (at least for the railfan, there were many difficult times for the corporations as well). I was not calling for any kind of revisionist history or any attempt to wipe them from the corporate memory banks of all present and future professioal and amatuer historians. I think that you may have over reached there. But you may be reacting to a larger series of events/statements than these postings which were originally about a lonely PRR SD45 in need of a good home (which I agree with your earlier posting about it going to Altoona).

As always, you make me think, and for that I can truly and honestly say, Thank you.

Long Live PC! [on page 343 of some book somewhere on some shelf that I can't reach :-) ]

Assuming that the GG1 is in one of the PA museums, it should have twin Baldwin 608S's installed. That would give you a nominal horsepower of 3200 which is close to a EMD 20 cylinder's 3600. The engines would come from a PA manufacturer (helping celebrate PA's diverse connections with Railroading) and you could put one in each end. Now back to rebuilding that PRR T-1 out in the barn...

For those that don't think there is value in remembering PC, consider the following:

PC represented the last hope of consolidation/mergers as a defensive tool to deal with what was then 8 decades of ill-advised federal regulation that some seem determined to resurrect (yeah, thats what we need, 535 "honorable" trainmasters working with K street lobbyists). There weren't enough administrative fixed costs or duplicate routes to be removed from the combined entity to counter the ICC's restrictions of rates and inordinately difficult abandonment criteria.

Right up to the point of bankruptcy,the bond raters thought Penn Central debt was worthy of their highest grades. How could they have made such a mistake? In part, it was related to the use of "betterment" accounting, which underestimated the true economic costs of usage. It wasn't until the government actually got in the business of railroading, that it listened to the experts that had said for decades that betterment accounting was at odds with the principles of delivery of reasonably accurate financials.

Yeah, the Penn Central was one of the great American industrial debacles-but there's great value in knowing these things, like the next time you get some glossy annual report with some armani-clad executive telling how many "synergies" are to be gained in their latest little exercise in empire building or especially when some parasitic politician (sporting an Ivy league law pedigree and limosine upbringing-but never actually having had a job they didn't get through connections or that actually involved work as we understand it) peddles some plan to have "reasonable" regulation of some industry they've been whipping the public into an indignant frenzy about.

Here is a very nicely preserved PC Transfer caboose:

http://www.rgvrrm.org/about/railroad/pc18526/index.htm

Built new by PC at the Despatch Shops, East Rochester, NY.
One of the last pieces of rolling stock ever built there..
yes, the shops were a NYC shop for the majority of their existence,
but I think a PC transfer caboose is very relevant to the local railroad history of Rochester. (or anywhere PC operated)

I think it would be great to see a preserved PC SD45!
it would definitely represent a very specific point in US railroad history..
a low point yes..perhaps the lowest point..
but think about it this way..that lowest point, because it was the lowest point, makes it of great historic relevance..

and what better locomotive to represent that low point, to represent the railroad climate of 1968-1976, than a PC SD45?
its a classic.

Scot

Joe - I'm not a great advocate of this, although to each his own. SRI just did it on a gondola for their recent photographers special. The gon was lettered for the C&O on one side and the PM on the other. But that car is all black, including both ends. The problem with our boxcar, as you pointed out, is that one end would have to be green (PC) and the other boxcar red (PRR). Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, but I guess I am a purist and would rather see the car PC or PRR, not both. As for the fact that I prefer the car be Pennsy rather than Penn Central, there are, what I think, good reasons for that. The Pennsy lasted over 100 years. PC only 8 (1968-1976). And although North Judson had four railroads going through it (Erie, C&O and NYC were the others), the Pennsylvania was BY FAR, the dominant railroad in town. Now if we had another piece of Pennsy rolling stock on the museum roster, I might even consider bringing the car back as PC #153177. But since we have no other Pennsy equipment, then I hope that the car will become, once again, PRR #607267. We shall see.

Les

Somewhere in my "stuff" there's a book titled Riding the Pennsy to Ruin. As I recall, it was written while before all the dust had settled in the northeastern railroad scene, some time before Conrail made some order out of the chaos. Being a southern Californian, I mostly beheld the fiasco from a safe distance, with this book providing a closer view. Whether we like it or not, PC (long before it meant a kind of computer) was a part of railroad history, but nobody can say that I have to spend any of my preservation dollars to restore full-size relics of this corporate horror story. The folks at Rochester decided that something tangible from this period should be preserved and have put their time and money to use proving the point. Good job!

Take my word for it: you don't want to be dealing with those overly-long crankshafts, the Achilles' heel of the design and the bane of those who had to deal with them. Settle for a 16-cylinder. Or maybe some neat modern hybrid design. <:-)

You mentioned Riding the Pennsy to Ruin. I happen to have several such books on my shelf, including No Way to Run a Railroad and The Wreck of the Penn Central. Unfortunately, almost every book about this unsettled era of Northeastern railroading basically qualified as a "quickie" book written to cash in on the hoopla surrounding that biggest corporate bankruptcy in America at the time--the court motions regarding the bankruptcy were still in motion when some of them were hastily written, and the books really focused on personal scandals of the bosses, not issues such as deferred maintenance, hidebound government regulation, etc.

Anyone got a good, historical book that actually covered cause, effect, and aftermath?

Try Rush Loving's The Men Who Loved Trains, published by Indiana University Press.

The Southern Michigan Railroad Society operates the former-NYC Clinton Branch, and received two Conrail cabeese. One was former NYC and was repainted as such of course. The other was former-NH, a type frequently used on the branch, and was painted fittingly :)
http://www.railroadmichigan.com/smich2caboose.jpg



So this would have two strikes against it, then, eh?
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?55203

Absolutely! The story of American railroad deregulation needs to be told. Not to mention the outcome - a lot of people still think the railroad business is fading.