I've heard various stories, but this one is probably true. Apparently Mr. Spence and his wife did not get along well with each other. When he died, she was quick to eliminate evidence of his train hobby, regardless of whether the engines were worth more as engines than scrap.

bobyar2001@yahoo.com

I never met Mr. Spence, but my brother and I bought our first locomotive (and only steam engine)out of storage at what had been Mr. Spence's sand and gravel pit in 1973. The 2-6-2 locomotive was part of the C. W. Witbeck estate, never a Spence engine.

The last day I was there, tieing down the locomotive on a flatcar, a gentleman stopped by and introduced himself as the Master Mechanic for the Spence equipment. This is what he told me about the demise of the collection;

As reported in an earlier post, Mr. Spence intended to build a connection between the MP and the Southern, bypassing New Orleans. He had acquired the right of way needed by purchasing old logging road right of ways primarily. Mr. Spence had gone to Washington, DC for ICC authority to build the railroad. He called the master mechanic from Washington to say that approval had been granted. He went on to say that the Mop and the Southern didn't have any problem with his hauling his sand and gravel trains with steam, but they wanted diesels on the overhead freights. Mr. Spence said he had ordered (or was going to order, I can't recall) two RS-3's for the through freights. Mr. Spence died of a heart attack before he made it back to Louisiana.

Again, according to the MM, both the MoPac and the Southern were in favor of the project. Since government authority to build was in hand, reps of the two roads went to the three heirs, the wife and two daughters. The railroad's proposal was, "We will build the railroad and manage it for you. All you will have to do is cash the dividend checks." One daughter said that sounded like a good idea to her, but the mother and the second daughter didn't agree, so the equipment was scrapped, except for four locomotives which escaped.

Other trivia from that conversation; the T&P was converted at the pit to one man operation. It was an oil burner and had an automatic feed water pump added. The last of the Nickel Plate Hudsons arrived after Mr. Spence died. Some of the raised chrome numbers off those locomotives ended up on the two steam engines on the Mississippian Rwy.

dsrc512@sd.value.net

Interesting accounting of the Spence collection. I never knew he had such grand plans for the engines. At least he did his part and hopefully is the great roundhouse having a good time now.
Thanks for the post.
Greg Scholl

Videos and such
sales@gregschollvideo.com

> Again, according to the MM, both the MoPac
> and the Southern were in favor of the
> project. Since government authority to build
> was in hand, reps of the two roads went to
> the three heirs, the wife and two daughters.
> The railroad's proposal was, "We will
> build the railroad and manage it for you.
> All you will have to do is cash the dividend
> checks." One daughter said that sounded
> like a good idea to her, but the mother and
> the second daughter didn't agree, so the
> equipment was scrapped, except for four
> locomotives which escaped.

To me this is a perfect example of something that gets lost on all of us in the rail preservation community, either male or female. How often do we REALLY get our families involved in our projects? In the past five years of my short life, I have three friends in the railfan community who have died untimely deaths. In only one case did the man have the foresight to explain the historic value of his collection to his wife. In the other two cases (one of which I'm still trying to work on) the wives had know idea, and, partly in resentment to the "my husband/ father spent more time with his trains than with me" argument, very valuable (historically) pieces were thrown away (in one instance, burned before my eyes) before anyone knew about it. They will want to move on with their lives, and one of two things will happen; either someone will pay them a pitance for that collection it took you a lifetime to acquire, or she will simply throw it away. Either way, our community as a whole loses.

I believe that rail preservation starts at home. I have tried to help my wife find a nitch for herself in this hobby; thank the lord for Ohio Central and its steam trips through amish territory, as my wife collects things in relationship to them. She has also become a big fan of the Dreyfus Hudson; I knew I married a woman with good taste! Also, if you don't believe in the power of Thomas, let me TELL you. Since he was basically born, I have tried to get as many of the Thomas books as I possibly could; the current result? My son has a great interest in books (he's a bit far away yet from reading them), but when stopped at a crossing this morning on the way to his day care, he put on this great big smile, pointed to the CSX train going by, and chanted "choo-choo, choo-choo" all the way until we got to the daycare. (He was still doing so when I left, too). Folks, he's 18 months old.

My point is this; as any or all of us who have family should realize, they come first. It is OUR job to install an interest in our children in our field, and to give at least a cursory knowledge of what we have in our collection to our spouses so that they aren't sitting amongst a pile of dusty/ moldy papers rescued from the countless depots we've raided. If you had no knowledge of their value, I think you might be inclined to light a match too. The next time you have a choice between going out hunting for that rumored "shay-in-the-woods" and taking your wife shopping, think long term. Better yet, get her to go looking for that shay-in-the-woods with you!

'nuff said-

TJG

Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

Jim:
Point well stated on the "units" issue. I meant no disrespect to our beloved steam breathing beauties.

John

bigboy4884@charter.net

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Before we completely villify the heirs of Paulson Spence, I have read on other bulletin boards of another culprit, the Illinois Central.

From what I read, the Louisiana Eastern collection was based adjacent to IC trackage. The family wanted to dispose of the locomotives, but part of the problem, was that the IC refused to move them over their rails. The only three engines that made it out were trucked out, a very expensive proposition.

I also follow naval history, and a similar tragedy occurred this past year in Brownsville, TX. The USS Cabot, the last surviving World War II light carrier was scrapped. She was the ship extolled by the famous war correspondent, Ernie Pyle as "The Iron Woman." The group the had control of her let her go downhill in New Orleans, and she was finally towed to Texas. She was seized by the US Bankruptcy court, and a group dedicated to her preservation offered $180,000 for her. Unfortunately the scrap merchant outbid them at the auction and paid $185,000 for her.

Unfortunately, not everyone appreciates American history as much as the people who frequent this site.

kevingillespie@usa.net

We have footage of several of the Spence locomotives in action in our video "Glory Machines Vol 5". Transferred from 16mm film by C W Witbeck, the scenes include an ex- Mississippi Central 2-8-2, L&E 4-4-0 No. 1. and perhaps one or two more. Mr. Spence is seen in the cab of the 4-4-0. In addition to the locomotives, he also had some rather choice passenger cars.

I understand that he left for Washington in his quest to start a new railroad the day after the 4-4-0 scenes were shot. He died in Washington Terminal as he prepared to return to Louisiana.



hrvideo@mindspring.com

OH MY GOD!

I thought this ship had been saved! This makes me absolutely sick to my stomach. My great-uncle served on the ship, too. Having become a part of the ship-preservation community as well (we are trying to save the Coast Guard bouy tender Bramble, last of the three that broke through the northwest passage in 1958, and currently have the last lightship on the Great Lakes LV-103 HURON as a satellite site), it just seems that much harder to mainatin and save a ship that is often twenty times the size of any one piece of rail equipment. Man. That put a real bummer on my morning, but I'm glad I know.

TJG

> I also follow naval history, and a similar
> tragedy occurred this past year in
> Brownsville, TX. The USS Cabot, the last
> surviving World War II light carrier was
> scrapped. She was the ship extolled by the
> famous war correspondent, Ernie Pyle as
> "The Iron Woman." The group the
> had control of her let her go downhill in
> New Orleans, and she was finally towed to
> Texas. She was seized by the US Bankruptcy
> court, and a group dedicated to her
> preservation offered $180,000 for her.
> Unfortunately the scrap merchant outbid them
> at the auction and paid $185,000 for her.

> Unfortunately, not everyone appreciates
> American history as much as the people who
> frequent this site.


Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

Over the years, I have known several people who were close to Mr. Spence, and it wuld have taken alot more to make his wife not hostile. I understand she was of the "Southern Society Set", read old Junior Leaguers, and she was embarrased that her wealthy husband played with trains. He was also known to host, ahem, parties on his railroad and private car for people other than Mrs. Spence, so he's not completely without fault.
As I understand it, the family was hostile to Mr. Spence and his dream for years before his death, although they did have an appreciation for his money, and were concerned that he was spending it on locomotives instead of giving it to them. Many have even said his trains were his refuge from a sour environment at home.

Amite La, was the U.S. Barry Scrapyard; unfortunatly hate filled domestic situation prevented serious efforts to save it.

Mr. Spence did an outstanding job of gathering up a collection that has never been equalled, and despite rumors the IC wouldn't move anything, the biggest factor was his wife wanted that stuff scrapped and gone as quickly as possible because that act was a final swipe at a man whose dream she hated.

lorija799@aol.com

> Ladies and Gentlemen,

> Before we completely villify the heirs of
> Paulson Spence, I have read on other
> bulletin boards of another culprit, the
> Illinois Central.

> From what I read, the Louisiana Eastern
> collection was based adjacent to IC
> trackage. The family wanted to dispose of
> the locomotives, but part of the problem,
> was that the IC refused to move them over
> their rails. The only three engines that
> made it out were trucked out, a very
> expensive proposition.

> I also follow naval history, and a similar
> tragedy occurred this past year in
> Brownsville, TX. The USS Cabot, the last
> surviving World War II light carrier was
> scrapped. She was the ship extolled by the
> famous war correspondent, Ernie Pyle as
> "The Iron Woman." The group the
> had control of her let her go downhill in
> New Orleans, and she was finally towed to
> Texas. She was seized by the US Bankruptcy
> court, and a group dedicated to her
> preservation offered $180,000 for her.
> Unfortunately the scrap merchant outbid them
> at the auction and paid $185,000 for her.

> Unfortunately, not everyone appreciates
> American history as much as the people who
> frequent this site.
Boy you hit the nail on the head on the terrible loss of the Cabot. Not was she the last surviving CVL, she was in almost her as built configuration. She had participated in almost every operation in the pacific from 43 onward, and had even won a Presidential Unit Citation. I had thought that such a ship would have been a great fit for Chicago. And before you laugh, the midwest was a major training area for carrier pilots, and there were even two carriers on Lake Michigan (SS Wolverine, SS Sable) during the war. Recently a dive bomber was retrieved from the water off Navy Pier in Chicago that was restored in the Naval Air Museun in Pensacola. Being that the CVLs were built on cruiser hulls, (carriers were in greater damand then cruisers at the time)they were not so long and it could have fit down the seaway. One only has to look at the success of the Intreped museum in New York to see what opportunity was lost for the midwest here. There was also a lot of there ships built for WWII in the midwest, My grandfather worked on Submarines in Manitowoc Wisconsin, Marinette Marine built ships. There were even LST's (landing craft tank) built on the Ohio River and sailed down to the gulf.


lead_sled7@hotmail.com

I had thought that such a
> ship would have been a great fit for
> Chicago. And before you laugh, the midwest
> was a major training area for carrier
> pilots, and there were even two carriers on
> Lake Michigan (SS Wolverine, SS Sable)
> during the war.

I assure you that I am not laughing. There is absolutely nothing to laugh about in the Cabot tragedy. As I said however, the people who post on this board care a great deal more about our country's heritage than do MOST of the nintendo generation. I read about her plight in the Washington Times, and I am sure it was publicized elsewhere. Unfortunately very few people with money cared. The irony is that the scrap metal market tanked, and with the exception of her island and a couple of gun mounts, most of her pieces still lie around the dock. Serves the guy right.

USS Cabot
kevingillespie@usa.net

> Boy you hit the nail on the head on the
> terrible loss of the Cabot. Not was she the
> last surviving CVL, she was in almost her as
> built configuration. She had participated in
> almost every operation in the pacific from
> 43 onward, and had even won a Presidential
> Unit Citation. I had thought that such a
> ship would have been a great fit for
> Chicago.
Being in the maritime preservation business I too think it was a tragity. Being somewhat smaller than the normal carriers she should have had a better chance at surviving. But all of those years in the Spanish Navy were not good for her. From an Interpretive not a physical point of view.
To get this back to a rail theme I think being too big it is the reason that a lot of steam engines were scrapped. Too much attractive steel there. Seems to me that looking at David Conrads book it is sometimes the case that smaller engines are left after the larger and newer ones go to scrap. TM



ted_miles@NPS.gov

> Being in the maritime preservation business
> I too think it was a tragity. Being somewhat
> smaller than the normal carriers she should
> have had a better chance at surviving. But
> all of those years in the Spanish Navy were
> not good for her. From an Interpretive not a
> physical point of view.
> To get this back to a rail theme I think
> being too big it is the reason that a lot of
> steam engines were scrapped. Too much
> attractive steel there. Seems to me that
> looking at David Conrads book it is
> sometimes the case that smaller engines are
> left after the larger and newer ones go to
> scrap. TM

Ted - Boy did you ever hit the nail on the head!! Some notable examples:

1. NORTHERN PACIFIC which did a nice job of preserving steam examples but which failed to preserve either a 4-8-4 (the type "Northern" was named after them for crying out loud!) nor a 2-8-8-4 Yellowstone (so named because it first went into service on the NP which served Yellowstone Park.)

2. SOO LINE, another line which had an extremely good steam preservation program but failed to save even one of their biggest engines, a 4-8-2 or a 4-8-4.

3. PENNSYLVANIA had a well thought out program of steam preservation but failed to save any of its "modern" power, the less-than-successful Q and T1 classes, its lone S class 6-8-6 Turbine and, most regretably it's VERY successful J1 class 2-10-4's (apparently because the engine was not designed by PRR but was based on an existing C&O locomotive.)

4. LOUISVILLE & NASHVILLE, which raved about its famous "Big Emma" M class 2-8-4's and then failed to save a single one (!) preserving only an old Rogers built 4-6-2 (although I am sure KRyM is happy with the choice.) The especially sad thing is that a few "Emmas" were still around well into the preservation era.

5. CENTRAL OF GEORGIA which saved, but then later scrapped its best in steam, a "Big Apple" 4-8-4.

6. ROCK ISLAND which had the largest fleet of 4-8-4's in the land, could only preserve three of its 4-6-2 Pacific's.

7. NEW YORK CENTRAL which not only failed to save at least one example of what some consider the best looking steam locomotive ever built (its J class Hudson), but also its most modern steamers, 4-8-4 Niagara's or the last ALCO built steam locomotives, subsidiary P&LE's 1948 built 2-8-4's.

On the other hand, there were those railroads that DID save their bigger engines. Just one example here is Nashville, Chattanooga & St. Louis whose only steam engine preserved is one of their 4-8-4 "Dixie's".

midlandblb@cs.com

In many cases the last engines left to preserve were the old small branchline and industrial locomotives which fulfilled marginally profitable operating requirements on seldom used rails of light weight and minimal ballast since they capitalization cost of a new diesel to replace them would not have been possible.

Many of thse old kettles operated until early lighter diesels were depreciated to the extent that replacing the lightweight steam proved economically sound, at which time the public had begun to miss the formerly familiar steam, and "preservation" in city parks and early museums was requested.

It is difficult to create a public nostalgia for things which are not yet gone.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Some of the problem lies with the communities themselves. When the City of Portland requested the donation of a "Daylight" locomotive, SP President D.J. Russell was only too happy to oblige. Many of the communities requested small engines because they were considered "cute" while no one wanted the larger SP power. Russell was upset that no city wanted a Daylight or Cab Forward. SP eventually held onto its last steam locomotive, 4-8-8-2 cab forward number 4294.

The city of Sparks, Nevada was offered a cab forward, but the town fathers declined, saying that they were beginning "Urban Renewal" and being a "Modern City, theydid not want any antiques cluttering up their city parks.

kevingillespie@usa.net