I just recently visited Steamtown for the first time in about six years and was a bit surprised at how bad some of the locomotives and rolling stock became in just a short period. One thing that occured to me though was that the price of admission was quite low. For a site like that, I'd charge a few more dollars a head. I think that say $7-9. a head would be fair. For my girlfriend and I, our bill came to under $20. and that was including the trian ride around the yard. I think if the admission price was raised a little bit, there would be more money to use to help at least stabalize some of the collection. My only other gripe was the fact that there was not an excursion to Moscow like there used to be every single weekend. I think that's what has kept me away for so long. I don't see why they stopped running trains every weekend, from about 1998 until about 2003 I went every single year and noticed that the trian was pretty full regardless of what was pulling it. I don't understand why they would stop a money maker like that.

I'm told on what is normally good authority that Mr. Pevsners article will soon be published in a nationally read rag( USA Today???). If that happens it will be interesting to see if it sparks any corrective actions by the folks (Sen. Specter, Sen.Casey, Cong. Kanjorski etc.) who can actually cause some change to take place???

Time will tell.

Ross Rowland

Whatever the problems are at Steamtown (and yes, there are some, perhaps many), Mr. Pevsner's credibility and track record, pun intended, is less than nil. He apparently hasn't figured out that taking a confrontational attitude toward NS, CP and DL/GVT will result in precisely the opposite of what he's seeking. That in itself speaks volumes.

For what was spent at Steamtown, there should have been basic covered storage, ala IRM-style barns, for 75-90% of the unrestored rolling stock. The political maneverings regarding the total yard footage have been well-documented. The net result was a limited site footprint. And the consequences of those descisions are bedeviling NPS to this day.

I doubt a private "concession" operator would see any value in spending money on things like wood passenger cars, non-revenue freight cars, cased exhibits and displays. The concentration would be on "The Ride". And The Ride is important, but it sure isn't the whole thing.

Wonder what's really driving Pevsner's agenda? A Google search on him is rather illuminating. Could he have a possible concessionaire waiting in the wings?

Howard P.
North Slocum's Hollow, CT

I find it very interesting that the vast majority of those posting comments on this thread have chosen to attack the author rather than address his thesis.

Seems to me that the important question before the house is--has S'town failed in its mission as the title suggests???

First step is to carefully read their Mission Statement as shown on their website and then compare that to the product they serve today to their paying guests. I would suggest that nearly all independant 3rd. party finders of fact would conclude that todays S'town falls way short of the Mission Statement- to put it kindly.

Next step is to examine his salient points as to how he suggests making things better. Many of these are subjective and are such in nature that there's no clear black or white answers. Personally, I don't think beating NS up will result in getting permission to use the Portland wye as I've always found that honey does indeed attract more bees than vinegar. Having said that, it would seem to me that it should be achieveable in that the physical wye is there, in decent shape, little used, and the steamer could run there light (without those risky passengers),turn and return to the consist with the most minimum exposure to NS.

As previously stated I concur with Mr. Pevsner that the only realistic chance for meaningful change is outsourceing the excursion and loco. restoration functions to a proven private sector operator. That will take substantial political pressure and is a long shot at best. Without that, I'm sorry to say, that it probably will soon be a static only facility and attendance will continue to dwindle and dwindle and dwindle.

Sad but true!!

IMHO-Ross Rowland

The fact of the matter is that, as valid as the author's hypothesis may be, if the arguments used to make the case for the point of view are either subject to debate/refutation or demonstrably false, this rightfully leaves the author's hypothesis or conclusions wide open for attack or rejection.

If I argue for the reform of Amtrak by saying that ridership is declining sharply when it's actually up 17 percent (or whatever the real figure is), then readers who know the reality will--rightfully--decide I have a different agenda than actually "reforming" Amtrak--or, more likely, they'll just say that I don't know what I'm talking about, and be right. Amtrak (among other things) deserves to sink or swim on the reality of its performance and return on investment, not on a bunch of bad Jay Leno jokes.

There are good arguments to be made for changing the way Steamtown NHS is run today. Pevsner's essay isn't a vehicle for these arguments, IMO. But, like a lot of political posturing and bloviating this year, it could well get way more attention and scrutiny than it deserves.

I'd like to call the question and move on.

Wesley

I have a small feeling Senators Casey and Specter have more important issues right now than some railfan's rant about a bunch of rusting rail equipment.

I sure as heck wouldn't want something criticizing the DL or NS printed in public. That kind of thing could make those roads very unfriendly to OTHER historical societies as well.

Hello

I won't take apart the article and refute it piece by piece, however if you'd like to read a good assessment of it, page over to trainorders. com in the steam and excursion section and take a look at Steve Barry's response. If it weren't against policy, I'd cross post it here. I will however steal a quote...

"If you take the items that are in Steamtown's control and keep them in this document, and remove the items that aren't under Steamtown's control, the document becomes 90% smaller automatically"

Any time a criticism is made, it's prudent to evaluate the one doing the criticizing. The article does make some valid points but is by no means a recipe for success. Remember, Mussolini made the trains run on time, but I don't want him as my concessionaire either.

Are there things that could use improvement? Yes with a capital YES. Is it a failure? I don't think so. They've run mainline excursions every year for 20 years with a vintage, open window train set. While other criticize operators for only having Amfleet or Horizon cars, Steamtown has the real deal. There have been bumps in the road, but that in of itself is impressive in of itself. In the days when Steamtown ran more trips, many ran almost empty. Now all are near capacity and there is a trip every weekend, with a schedule posted online way in advance. To me a government entity rationalizing cost vs. benefit is a breath of fresh air.

As for runby's. Well the railroad (my employer) is hesitant, partly because of some past experiences, along with the usual concerns, but progress is being made. Most regular trips don't have one for the traffic/liability reasons. Neither do most trips run by the R&N, the 261, SF 3751, Union Pacific and so on.

Last years Railfest had a planned runby that changed locations operating conditions demanded, but DID happen. I'm pretty sure this years Railfest will feature one also.

Progress.

Dave Crosby

P.S. About that "bridge fee" charged by the railroad. It's per train, not per car. It is an attempt to recoup some of the nearly $400,000 in repairs to the bridge borne by the DL back in the early 90's.

I can't help but to agree with Wesley.

This article is pretty obviously written by someone who has a lot of unabashed opinion and conjecture (as so many bloggers do) but doesn't seem to find it necessary to back it up with fact. Those more familiar with Steamtown ops, like Mr. Crosby here and Mr. Barry on the other board, have made excellent points to the contrary of the article.

Furthermore, how many times do we really need to go through this Steamtown-bashing exercise? I think by now we're all quite sure who the critics are.

I'll echo the "glad to see Ross back," but if he plans to show up just long enough to take his usual shots at his usual suspects, after making a scene of bidding farewell, I wish he'd cease and desist.

IMHO - TB

It's time to lock this topic. We are going over old ground and not making progress. Moderators?

Yes definitely, it's the same old song and dance.

Link to Trainorders' discussion, including Brother Barry's excellent rebuttal:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/r ... 10,1722056

It is NOT time to lock this topic. Lest we offend one of the "sacred cows"... The topic is discussion of an article written about a government owned railroad preservation entity, and as such, it is open to closer scrutiny than most other museums and tourist railroads. I have seen no evidence of flaming or personal insults in this thread, though the validity of the author's (of the article) arguments, suppositions, and allegations have been called into question - and that is what thoughtful discussion and debate is supposed to foster.

I do agree that it seems the issues have been visited in the past, but this is relevent new information and deserves to be heard and discussed.

Best to all,
Mike

A big supporter of many Steamtown folks and and the park in general - but open minded enough to look at the situation with a mature and critical eye. (see previous post in this thread)

Let's talk geography:

How does Steamtown's location hurt/help them? Sure they are along the D-L so that is a plus. But certain trips would require NS approval. Not impossible, and NS is embracing history a little more (as evident in their Fs).

But the park is in downtown Scranton. Scranton is not going to top the list as a trendy place to go. And I'm sure there's more than one family that won't take their kids to the "big city". It is close to New York, but are they getting any of that population at all?

Kind of a moot point now, but if they could do it again, is downtown the best place for Steamtown?

From another POV: Steamtown was a political attempt to build some tourism / economic development in a formerly live now dead coal mining and shipping center. While any of us can and do have varied opinions as to how well it is functioning as a preservation and interpretation organization, how much is it actually contributing to the economic vitality of Scranton? I'm not interested in salaries paid, but in dollars brought in from elsewhere due to Steamtown's presence by visitors.

dave