I said it in the beginning of Steamtown back in 1995, " How can the US. Government run a steam railroad museum, When they have trouble enough running this country" I said that to Jim Boyd of Railfan & Railroad. He lol.
And it still holds as good question today.

Len.

I think there are a lot of valid points here and perhaps in the article. As Superheater stated I think the article would hold more sway with those of us on the scene if it were based on the opinions of almost anyone other than the two who did. But the average reader in Scranton doesn't know that so they may very well feel this article reinforces their personal observations.

I was interested in the comments of "Kip" Hagen concerning partnering with others and possibly for some excursions. This would really require a change in procedures and attitudes if it was to ever work. Just ask the Lackawanna & Wyoming Valley Chpater guys as they deal the most with Steamtown, be it operating the Moscow station or raising the funding for the B&M locomotive. Not something anyone will go through if they don't have to.

To me, the most important first step is to admit that 30-40 pieces will never be restored and need to be removed - given to others if they can be found (doubtful) or scrapped. The public perception will immediately go way up if the sad lines of derelict equipment were not the first thing many visitors see.

Steamtown observer, I agree. Nobody wants to see a bunch of trains falling apart. But who chooses? Do you get rid of the cars? What about the locomotives? One thing to remember is that most of the locomotives still have asbestos in them so not much can be done with them until it's removed. They are waiting on the money, again the money, to remove it and it’s not due to them until 2010. That's a long time to wait.
Getting people to the museum is hard. Under the rules of the National Park Service they cannot advertise. So maybe Scranton needs to set up and do the advertising for them.
This is a unique situation with the steam locomotives. I believe this is the only place where the government owns the trains. So your standard tourism rules don’t apply. Steamtown can’t get money the same way the private sector does, grants, loans, etc.

Afboone, What do you mean by this statement? "Under the rules of the National Park Service they cannot advertise"

Where did you hear of this? If that's the case then Valley Forge is in big trouble and so is Gettysburg.
I guess the website that Steamtown has, is not Advertising? or the brochure they send to Strasburg Railroad and other tourist places is not Advertising, Oh and the Advertisement they have on Cable TV too.
How about the bill board they have along the Route 81?

I'm not sure you know what your talking about on that statement, Afboone.

Len.

With all this debate over privatizing Steamtown's excursion operations, I can't keep from thinking "didn't that sort of happen for one season way back 18 or 19 years ago?" After the NPS took over the site and the collection they found themselves without an excursion route since the DL&W main to Moscow and beyond was unusable due to bridge conditions. Even Bridge 60 was off limits to loaded passenger trains and it seemed that Steamtown's steam excursion trains were stuck on site. The answer to the problem were the regulary-scheduled trips to Kingsley over the D&H's ex-DL&W main that lasted until the line up Nay Aug could be repaired and reopened. The fotenote to all of this was for the first season of the Kingsley trips (if my memory is right) Water Rich's NYS&W, which was operating the D&H at the time, handled the excursion operations in some fashion or another. Adding to the partnership was the Lackawnna Coal Mine Tour which handled the ticketing that first year of Kingsley trips. I remember ordering tickets with the instruction "make the check payable to the coal mine tour". Since a loaded passenger train couldn't back out over the "supposedly-too-dangerous Bridge 60", passenger loading and unloading had to be done elsewhere along the D&H tracks. Another partner in all of this was the local Polish-American club (I think that what it was; if not, something similar) who supplied a parking area and their building for a waiting room. NPS Rangers staffed the coaches and up front in the 2317 was often the D&H's Bernnie O'Brien showing a younger generation what a steam locomotive could do on the grade through Clarks Summit. Everything seemed to work just fine and if I remember right the trains were truly packed. I recall the folks at that trackside club having to get really creative in parking all the cars. I don't know exactly what the arrangements were that year between the NPS, the NYS&W/D&H, the Coal Mine Tour, and that trackside club and if this really was a brief "privatization of sorts", but that partnership ran at lot of trains and hauled a lot of riders. Just a moment in Steamtown history to reflect on!

Regards,
Jim Robinson

Len, the government has specific rules on what we can spend the money on. I deal everyday with these crazy rules on buying stuff. The list of things I’m authorized to purchase is shorter than the list of what I can’t purchase. Advertising can’t be purchased with government funds. When we have our Air show here we have to partner up with the local businesses and work the advertising that way. When I was up there two weeks ago talking about volunteering they told us they can’t do any advertising. The brochures are most likely coming out of Washington budget not Steamtowns, very similar to our Air Force recruiting stuff which is its own budget within the Air Force, which is approved by some big wigs at the Pentagon. Now that’s not to say they can’t partner up with someone and then do the advertising but that has to be approved by the Washington office. That maybe what you see for Gettysburg and Valley Forge that may be a sponsor paid advertisement. Not sure.

Steve.

And you can ride a trolley to some of the games. How cool is that?

Sigh, I fear that this is just a lot of the same old round and round. In fact, since I type everything in Microsoft Word before I post, I could probably just cut and past my previous responses to different Steamtown posts from stuff saved in my computer. In any case...

Yes, there’s a lot that could be changed at Steamtown for the better, but as Steve Barry appropriately pointed out in the article, how do you want to pay for it? By the nature of it’s own existence as a National Park, Steamtown will have a large administrative, interpretive and maintenance staff to support BEFORE you factor in even the Restoration and Operation folks. There is also a large utility expense to cover. Both of these consume an overwhelming majority of the funds coming into the park. Long story shot, Steamtown is what it is, it’s not the best-case scenario, but that’s the way it goes.

Expenses are going up, utilities, fuel, light bulbs, you name it. There’s less and less money to go around every year. Yes, a lot of the equipment is in terrible shape, but you’ve got to find the money to do something about it. Paint is cheap you say? OK, now, you have to send your people to paint some of the stuff that needs paint, which means you take them from other places like locomotive servicing, grounds keeping and so on. It all takes money. I do agree something needs to be done manage the collection, but I’m not sure where to start. Various people/groups have come forward to volunteer on various projects, but invariably they make a big show on a Saturday afternoon and then most never return when they realize it’s hot, dirty, ugly work scraping paint off a T-1. I don’t see any mention of the following display equipment Steamtown has restored since 1995:

-L&N RPO
-Erie Business Car
-Rutland Wooden Caboose
-DL&W Wooden Box Car
-Rutland flatcar
-5 US D.O.D. 40 foot flat Cars
-DL&W steel Caboose
-LNE Steel Caboose
-2-4-2T #7
-0-4-0T #43
-0-6-0 #3
-3 Lackawanna Coal Hoppers with faux coal loads
-2 PRR Steel Box Cars.

This doesn’t include the parking lot locomotives, that I’ll agree, are becoming eyesores after “quickie” paint jobs a decade ago.

Steamtown used to run a lot of excursions, up to 8 a week. When I used to work there, our passenger counts would be as low as the high thirties/low forties on some trips. The NPS decided to rationalize its operations based on the numbers they saw. I think it was a wise decision and made for a healthier balance of income/expense. Most trains now run full. I see this as an unusual instance of the federal government acting in a financially prudent matter.

Steamtown has run two mainline engines on mainline trips with vintage steam-era cars for the last 20 years. The list of places that can claim that they’ve done that is pretty darned short. Riding in a CNJ coach at 30 or 40 miles an hour beats doing 79 in a NJT Comet car any day, IMHO.

While the concept of having a concessionaire run excursions is, I admit, interesting, lets consider the number of private operators that have gotten out of the Steam or passenger business lately. Ohio Central curtailed public excursions, Grand Canyon is out of the steam business, GrandLux is no more. Privatization is not necessarily a panacea for what ails you.

As for myself, I used to work at Steamtown, in various capacities, the last of which was conductor/fireman. I agree there is room for improvement, and the site is far from perfect. Even I left to pursue greener pastures. However, when I hear criticisms based on ignorance, or in some cases more sinister motivations, I feel the need to call “BS”. I’ll be happy to defend any of my points above.

Dave Crosby

P.S. No, the government (Including the NPS) cannot SPEND money on advertising. Outside organizations can buy advertising as a donation and this is common with larger parks that have "booster" groups. In other cases some media outlets donate advertising as a write off.

Right now, he doesn't get them at all! HA!

After carefully reading the article I'd say it is very balanced, and based on the facts at issue could have well been a LOT tougher!!

As another poster above stated we've been over this enough times that most of it need not be rehashed.

The article speaks for itself.

It's now up to the business/political leaders of the greater Scranton community to decide if attracting an additional 150,000- 250,000 visitors a year is worth the considerable effort it will take to work through the steps needed to achieve the privateization of the facility. I'm sure that if Sen. Specter and or Casey should decide that it's a good idea-- eventually it would happen.

Short of that, it will be just more of the same 'ole same 'ole and as I stated in the article, interest/attendance will continue to dwindle and dwindle and dwindle. I've been warning of this since '95 and am VERY sorry to have been so correct.

Mr. Pevsner reports that thanks to the front page mention of how to access his complete article that it has experienced a sharp spike in readership. Let's hope that some of those readers are folks who can take the bull by the horns and get something concrete done???

Hope springs eternal!!!

Ross Rowland

I move to table the matter until the issue is before us again next month.

Wesley

While I will also agree that certain aspects of Steamtown's customer service could stand improvement, I'm now left to wonder where the figures of an additional of 150,00 to 250,000 people (through privatization) have come from.

I've yet to see someone come forward that has experience experience in managing a long-running, sustained railroad museum/excursion or even non-railroad oriented tourist/museum site. Mr Pevsner certainly would not seem to qualify.

I'm with Wesley. Nothing new to see here, lets move on.

Dave Crosby

I've just learned that the AP has picked up the Scranton Times article and will be running it tonight on thier national feed. Perhaps getting national exposure will light the fire needed to bring about the constructive changes so badly needed??

Time will tell.

Ross Rowland

And the nation yawned, and turned to the latest election, hurricane and sports coverage.

dave

If a railfan jillionaire wanted to buy Steamtown, would it be feasible?

No,because disposition of the park requires an event called decommissioning, which requires an act of Congress. You have to remember that the creation of a park site requires a strange fusion of political will and historic value. The couple-two-tree parks that were decommissioned were done after time revealed the mix to be 95 plus percent political will and less than 5% historical value. While Joe McDade was indeed a powerful patron, what he sought to preserve does have historic value, so its more like 85% historical value/15% politics.

I suppose if such a jillionaire existed on the East Coast, he or she would have already purchased the EBT.

Doubtful, unless he/she felt a need to stop being a jillionaire. I’ve visited the EBT, wish it the best, but its down to one engine (15, right?). The buildings are in need of stabilization. The sad reality is it survived because there wasn’t much development pressure on it, and that’s what makes it hard to justify politically, despite its unequaled historic value. I’d have to check the numbers, but I seem to recall that the Pennsylvania Historic and Museum Commission was among the few agencies where “fiscal restraint” occurred in the last budget. I just can’t see the Commonwealth ever intervening at EBT.

Supey, the Red Barrons moved BUT they were replaced by the Yankees AAA club. Not exactly a loss, in some eyes it might even be an upgrade.

If I recall correctly, Lackawanna County had to play an active, if not outright role in getting the Yankee franchise, because no private interests thought it economically prudent to bring another AAA team to NEPA. True the 2007 attendence was 565K vs. the previous record of 560K in 1992, but how much of that is novelty and north Jersey folks heading west on I-80? I don’t see 2008 stats yet, but apparently this year there was a championship team.

Scranton was just named the “fastest dying” city in the US by Forbes due to the high proportion of people over 45. I’ve seen the change in the ridership. The aging local population wasn’t even considered by the critics as a factor in the attendance figures. It was these two guys said it sucks, so it sucks.

Look lets be blunt here, we ‘re dealing with a someone who really has no where to go to have a last shot at the right seat. Advocating vacant or nebulous “change” is real easy, even politicians are doing it now. Of course the politicians sometime get it right. In particular, I’m thinking about the one quipped about any equus asinus being able to kick down a barn, the real trick is to build one. I hear a lot of braying and kicking, but no hammering or sawing or even pictures of previously built structures.

Of course when that “yellow ribbon express” comes off, I’m listening. Ok, I checked the website.
This new web site is very much a "work-in-progress" and we encourage you to come back often as we will be greatly expanding the site during the month of August 2007, to include many details of this exciting and timely project.

Call me a cynic, but I'm thinking the BigBoy4018 project will happen before the YRE.