You've described the customers, not the paint :)

Anyway, not an issue for undercoats. You should go for best performance there, provided your finish coat is compatible. For instance, Awlgrip 545 can be promptly recoated with just about anything, including Martha Stewart (I've tried this).

As for finish coats, car owners and yachtsmen do love their shiny. The real question is whether paint companies can come up with a durable poly or epoxy that simulates the look of the old oleoresins.

Anyway, let's look at some completed projects.

Here's a direct link to Snoqualmie's WRL 001 caboose
http://wrl001.restorations-nrm.com/

Here's WRM's CCT 3001 boxcar
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25300&p=113696#p113696

Now, what did we apply there?

For CCT 3001, we brushed on Awlgrip 545 primer
http://www.awlgrip.com/products/search/ ... rimer.aspx
The components we used were D1001 gray base, D3001 converter, and as needed T0031 reducer for brush. They also make a white base.

For fairing, we used Awlfair LW
http://www.awlgrip.com/products/search/ ... ir_LW.aspx
The components were D8020 white base and D7007 red converter.

Finally "Awlgrip Topcoat" was sprayed.
http://www.awlgrip.com/products/search/ ... pcoat.aspx
I wasn't involved in that (spraying polyurethanes is not for amateurs) but I believe the chemicals were a custom paint mix, G3010 converter for spray, T0003 reducer for spray.

I brush Awlgrip finish coats. I use a color such as G2017 Super Jet Black, mixed 2:1 with H3002 converter for brush, then reduce with T0031 reducer for brush minimum 10% maximum 33%. You need reducer or it takes days to cure :)

Chris (and others)

Our 001 rehabiliation team (Dale Campbell, Martin Nemerever, Dick Huntamer, Rich Wilkens, Dan Calhoun and dozens of others on a time-available basis) used the 545 primer as described by Robert above and the top coat was Awlgrip Topcoat (http://www.awlgrip.com/products/search/pages/Awlgrip_Topcoat.aspx) color matched to our sample. (Be prepared for three coats with a dark color - it does not have good hide characteristics when applied as directed.)

Typically, coatings were applied with a roller and tipped with a brush but techniques did vary slightly. Oh, and the crew added flattener to knock the gloss down. Although not recommended for brush application, most were happy with the results from the flattener. There was no real fairing done because, well, it's a logging caboose, not a Corvette.

Interior was a different story. Color-matched alkyd primer and paint from Farwest Paints of Seattle was used there.

Richard

I'm sorry, I was referring to how the paint becomes dry. All paints evaporate solvents, that's true. But in single-part paint, that's it. Solvent evaporates leaving resins that were already in the paint can the whole time. In a two-part paint, the parts react to create a new resin which was not present in either part, and doesn't have to be soluble in anything, and in fact doesn't even have to flow, because it's formed in-situ. This is a dense molecular matrix unlike anything available in one can.



WRM and I would agree, if you change "paint" to "paint prep". CCT 3001 was restored partly by new volunteers walking in off the street. Me, in fact. My very first hour at WRM was "Here's the door rollers, there's the beadblaster" - and the rest of the day I did paint prep. The next six months, in fact. Finish-coat happened in one afternoon.

I think we agree the quality of your paint should be commensurate to the quality of your prep. Putting $1000/gal. aircraft paint over powerwasher prep is as stupid as putting Martha Stewart over 500-hour painstaking prep.

When I painted parts of the Ann Arbor Emerald Vale, I used 2 coats Kilz, 3 coats ACE top latex paint. It lasted more than 10 but less than 20 years.

If CCT 3001 had been painted with Kilz and Glidden, I would have thought nothing of it, not knowing any better. But now I've come to learn why we use this stuff, and I'm really honored that WRM answers our sweat equity by spending $800 more than they would've spent on Kilz and Glidden.

THAT's taking care of your volunteers. It makes me want to do more projects for WRM.

Or as Don Lancaster says in "The Incredible Secret Money Machine"...

tactics secret - separate frugality from stupidity.

It should go without saying that your starting money machine should do almost everything as cheaply as possible and in a low energy and low profile way. For instance, buying brand-new metal filing cabinets for your starting money machine isn't even stupid. ... But there are at least two exceptions ...

Our second exception applies to a very few of the key tools you use in your money machine. Is a collecting Selectric really better than a Brother portable? Is a Nikon better than an Instamatic? Is a Tektronix scope better than an Eico? You better believe it.

This has turned into a pretty good discussion.

I just wanted to mention that the only way to avoid this is by putting the car in climate controlled environment that maintains both the temperature and humidity within a reasonable range without sudden swings. This is how paintings in museums can be made to survive for centuries. Unfortunately, this is well beyond the aspirations of most railroad museums, and very few pieces of rail equipment have been preserved in this fashion.

In other museum fields people would not dream of applying new paint. The outdoor nature of most "preserved" railroad equipment (not to mention the frequent requirement that it operate) is part of the reason why I think it makes more sense to compare what we do to what gets done to preserve and restore architecture. A lot of materials are the same, and although the operational requirements are different, many of the ideas are comparable. Both buildings and rail equipment need to meet current standards of safety if they are to remain in use, and materials have to be renewed to maintain the structure.

I have once again wandered off topic, but there is clearly little sense in comparing rail preservation to art conservation or even the rest of the world of history museums.

The Western Railway Museum has such a facility. It also has two pieces (a Shell tank car and PFE reefer) that were lovingly restored by the original owner's shop forces and then donated to the museum. Both of these cars sat outside for decades before going into our facility.

As a result one of the most interesting features of the PFE car - the PFE shop paint - is sadly deteriorated. This isn't all bad; we use it as an educational tool about why we have carbarns. The good news is that the Shell car's paint survived quite well, in stark contrast to its very badly rotted wooden catwalks.

Randy Ruiz wrote:

A better comparison to railroad cars may be house museums... by definition they leave their most significant artifact, the house, outside in the weather...

Building a dome or other structure over and or around the historic building would destroy its relationship to the landscape.

It a sense this argument could be applied to the display inside or outside argument for railroad cars. For railroad cars at least they can be moved outdoors for a short time for display occasionally.

[quote="robertmacdowell"]
"If CCT 3001 had been painted with Kilz and Glidden, I would have thought nothing of it, not knowing any better. But now I've come to learn why we use this stuff, and I'm really honored that WRM answers our sweat equity by spending $800 more than they would've spent on Kilz and Glidden.
THAT's taking care of your volunteers. It makes me want to do more projects for WRM."

I am pleased to hear that WRM has deep enough pockets to spend $800 on paint for a project. The museums and railroads that I have been associated with over the years have had limited budgets. Also, most projects have had to be completed in the open air, without the luxury of a paint booth or even a shop building.

"Or as Don Lancaster says in "The Incredible Secret Money Machine"...
[list]tactics secret - separate frugality from stupidity."

My first impression of this comment was not very well received, but it soon passed. Coming from a frugal New England background, "we" do not temper our choices with stupidity, rather we use what is at hand to our best advantage.

While we can agree to disagree, I will stand by my personal experience. Good hardware store primers and paints such as "Kilz and Glidden" will do the job of preservation, and not at the expense of volunteer labor.

Romi Romano

Do NOT apply linseed oil to anything ever. A person who has to repaint that car in the future will hate you. You will have paint adhesion problems and paint peeling unless you sand down to bare wood before repainting. The problem will be especially severe if you use synthetic enamel or any of the modern polyurethane or epoxy finishes.

If you use linseed oil be sure to clean up very carefully and put rags in a closed metal container. A local hardware store burned because rags used to clean up a linseed oil spill were discarded in a wastebasket.