"While I heartily support government preservation as a viable option."

Good grief man, seriously. What are you talking about? Viable option? For what? That's an anthem, not a plan or even a realistic expectation.

Interesting you note that Steamtown. The "viability" of government support is contradicted by the very history you provide. In spite of the refrain of certain notorious critics, Steamtown has some very dedicated staff, laboring under a budget that was (is?) flat for a decade. Here's another little secret. It has a volunteer corps that other NPS installations envy.

A little history: After Rep. McDade used "unusual parliamentary procedure" to get the bill through (skipping Bruce Vento's Interior Committee, Vento spent the rest of his career in a petty, childish quest for retaliation). Is that viable?

Now that Uncle Joe is gone and there's been redistricting; Steamtown is in Paul Kanjorski's district. Kanjorski I think has taken SOME interest recently, but despite his longevity, nobody is going to confuse his ability to bring home the bacon with McDade or his predecessor Dan Flood.

In the Senate, Arlen Specter is in the fight of his life, actually two, because he's likely to get a primary challenge, despite the White Houses promise to clear the deck. Bob Casey found time to be one a few Senate patrons of an organization that probably be the subject of a RICO probe; but I can't recall seeing anything from him pushing for increased funding.

Once "Uncle Joe" was gone, Steamtown lost its patron, its advocate. The point is just because you can get something authorized by the vigorous interest of a legislator doesn't mean his/her successors are going to be bound to exhibit the same interest. The same dynamics can operate no matter whether government involvement is federal or state.

As for state involvement in rail preservation; lets see. While the state does dole out piles of money to private entities in the form of rail freight assistance grants, it hasn't been quite as generous with PRESERVATION. Given an opportunity to rebuild the viaduct on the Knox & Kane after the twister; the Governor made it clear that was a non starter. (But getting Rotem from Korea to Philly to put it in near proximity of SEPTA, different story) We all know that was the key nail in the K&K's coffin. The state cutoff funds for the K-4. Harrisburg just isn't interested in helping and things aren't going to get better in the near future, there's a looming "pension crisis" in the new future and Auditor General Jack Wagner is proposing early retirements.

Even if you think suffering the vissitudes of legislative whim is "viable", with the inherent need to continually curry the favor of legislators like medieval serfs seeking the favor of their lord, here's more likelihood of finding a PRR Duplex than having Harrisburg suddenly take an interest in the EBT. As for providing the kind of money necessary to restore the line, its operations and stabilize its structures, that horse left the barn.

I hope the progress cited continues, certainly a symbol of success would a second running engine.

For the non-Pennsylvanians out there, we still don't have a state budget. Record late. The most recent 'solution' on doing mini-casinos was threatened with a lawsuit from the big casinos already in-state that paid huge licensing fees. And on it goes.

In the political climate of the moment, nothing is safe in the state. Anybody's program can suddenly, and rapidly, go 'poof'.

One of my clients is a state-funded local agency for child care services. They have a four-person staff; the agency has borrowed enough money locally to keep one person paid, the rest are on rotational part-time layoff. In that environment it's difficult to be heard, let alone justified. The money just stopped when the budget locked down.

Texas State Rairoad was cut loose from Texas Parks and Wildlife two years ago after a budget crisis, it's now under local bi-county control with a for-profit operator and ridership is way up. That's one of those deals that would have appeared to be "safe"; i.e. a state park, but it very much wasn't. A 'park'/'museum' is great, but it's not necessarily more long-term secure any more than a lot of other options.

I think superheater makes some very valuable points. As I've often observed S'town has been an absolute success from the point of view of creating 5 dozen or so high paying ( by Scranton standards) jobs in a very depressed community, which was undoubtedly the prime objective of its patron saint Cong. Joe McDade. I also agree with s'heater that there are some very dedicated folks who work there and they wish things could be different.

From a steam lovers perspective ( and germane to the EBT discussion) S'town is a classic example of why you DON"T want a property to end up as a ward of the Federal gummit. Just reflect on the facts for a moment. Since its "official" opening in 1995 its burned through approx. $70 MILLION in taxpayer subsidies and has yet to restore to operation a single locomotive. Matter of fact it struggles to keep even one loco. road worthy! It doesn't take much imagination nor knowledge to know that with that kind of money what would have been accomplished in a private sector setting such as Strasburg or NH&I or TVRM etc. However, again from the perspective of why it was really created ( jobs) it's a homerun!!

In todays budget crisis climate there's zero chance that the State of Penn. is going to find any funding for the EBT. It's hopes for continued survival lie entirely within its ability to support itself with operating revenues and the efforts of the Friends organization. I wish them the best of success!!

IMHO, Ross Rowland

OK, so can we all now agree that in the specific instance of EBT right now the most effective structure is enlightened private ownership supported by a well run nonprofit volunteer organization with well articulated goals and strategies for achieving them? Also, that the great recent achievements of this group justify that position?

Can we also agree that what holds for EBT today might not be the model best applied everywhere else anytime else?

I'm getting a bit annoyed by the one-size-fits-all proponents of either the private or public sectors as a universal truth. No structure will work forever everywhere, and as conditions evolve we need to keep up with them - the biggest winners will be those that anticipate the direction of that evolution and change course before being forced to. Both these swords are double edged, and moving out of the way the sword is being swung before it hits your throat - either on the swing or the rebound - is the challenge.

dave

The above discussion is far-reaching, and brilliant, and should be thoroughly studied by anyone who hopes to open his or her mouth with regards to the unique difficulties of the EBT.

Upon exhaustive review, I simply can't come up with ANY acceptable answer to the multiple difficulties involved. Let's review:

*Continued private ownership: the railroad may be owned by smart business people, but it's a labor of love that sucks up money faster than a yacht, racehorses, a private business car, or any other more "practical" business toy. The railroad is theoretically at risk from one substantial economic downturn. There are still huge mounds of scrap in the Kovalchick scrapyards--and my brothers-in-law were amazed that they hadn't been cleared out during the last steel price spike. And I can't see any way to make the EBT a commercially viable tourist operation, even if I were bold enough to suggest, and build, the next Dollywood, Tweetsie, Six Flags, or Disney Appalachia on the line
*State acquisition/ownership: See above discussions.
*Federal acquisition/ownership: See above, plus past discussions, plus the Kovalchicks' supposed distrust of government.
*Local/county government. It's a VERY small and rural county--this isn't like an Arizona county that's bigger than Delaware. The money is just NOT there, and never will be.

So what do we have left? The one possibility that I've thought about is a multi-county, regional economic development agency such as the Susquehanna Economic Development Agency-Council of Governments, or SEDA-COG, which happens to own the railroad lines upon which the North Shore/"Robey empire" family of railroads operate not too far away from the EBT: http://www.seda-cog.org/seda_cog/site/default.asp The railroad operation has become, over the years, a probably disproportionately huge portion of the SEDA-COG mission statement and functions. Unfortunately for the EBT, Huntington County is not part of the SEDA-COG map; if there's an equivalent agency that serves that area, Alan Maples may know of it. Unfortunately, preserving history and preserving economies are often diametrically opposite goals, and in spite of the "Mt. Union Connecting RR," I doubt one can make a serious case for right-of-way preservation for economic development, aside from tourism via rails-to-trails or the EBT operation.

But where does the money come from? The only thing I see working is an "angel"--the Feds, a Congressional pork appropriation, Pete Waterman, some lottery winner--swooping in with the money to acquire the railroad, place its right-of-way and property in perpetual trust or local government hands, and said body retaining preservation of the assets but sub-leasing the operation and restoration to private groups like the FEBT or the Altoona guys currently there. And even THAT raises the specter of yet another Georgetown Loop or Edaville.

Stalemate.

I'm out of ideas, guys. I don't see any way to break the deadlock. And I don't play the lottery. This is pretty much why, every time I drive by the EBT, I wish them well and pay up for tickets and donate to the FEBT, but I always leave as if it's the last time I'll ever see her.

“The problem is that these things we strive so hard to save, preserve, restore, and operate are expensive, giant money pits and money is hard to find. The general public has many feelings about what we do, many not as passionate as our own; this stuff is nothing more than outdated machinery, it's nice but don't spend my tax dollars on it, and not in my backyard are often what organizations must deal with.”

“Can we also agree that what holds for EBT today might not be the model best applied everywhere else anytime else?”

But where does the money come from? The only thing I see working is an "angel"--the Feds, a Congressional pork appropriation, Pete Waterman, some lottery winner--swooping in with the money to acquire the railroad, place its right-of-way and property in perpetual trust or local government hands, and said body retaining preservation of the assets but sub-leasing the operation and restoration to private groups like the FEBT or the Altoona guys currently there. And even THAT raises the specter of yet another Georgetown Loop or Edaville.

I'm getting a bit annoyed by the one-size-fits-all proponents of either the private or public sectors as a universal truth. No structure will work forever everywhere, and as conditions evolve we need to keep up with them - the biggest winners will be those that anticipate the direction of that evolution and change course before being forced to. Both these swords are double edged, and moving out of the way the sword is being swung before it hits your throat - either on the swing or the rebound - is the challenge.


Let me be very clear. I don't have any answers either; my initial point remains limited to this: don't wait for government to swoop in deus ex machina to save your favorite place in the way you'd want it to do.

Nor do I believe its IMPOSSIBLE to have effective government operation; if EBT were to be run like Cass, that would be great but Cass is something of an exception.

As much as I appreciate Ross's latest bromide against Steamto (sorry, I nodded off there again) I wonder, as a bureacrat, even if there was a healthy fiscal situation and respect for EBT; what politician is looking to set themselves up to be criticized when somebody with name recognition but no apparent understanding of the limits and requirements of running a government installation creates strawmen of perfection that can't withstand the gales of imperfection that exist everywhere.

I wonder was it it the caucaphony of dissatisfaction that caused the K-4 moneys to be restricted? If story after story about delays and mismanagement hit the paper; its really easy for the politicians to shut off the money, posturing it as fiscal responsibility. (By the way, it doesn't matter how much has been spent, it only matters how much more it will take, unless you don't understand the sunk cost fallacy).

However, as I survey the situation and look for OPERATING STEAM, I see a couple of successful models; one: the levered operating railroad (OC, R&N) with the strong interest of a private owner, or two the road that survives because because of it enjoys proximity to a destination that's desirable; Colorado Narrow Guage, Strasburg.

The most "viable"? I argue Strasburg, which because of the need for profit, creates customers, not riders, an experience, not a ride, and a focus on pleasing those customers. The revenue stream is better when its diversified among thousands, rather than a few fickle politicians.

Also, Perhaps that's why they are holding off on the Camelback and the 972; as profit-seekers they need to ration capital logically and rationally in regard to reasonable expectations.

No, the Strasburg model won't work at Orbinisonia due to location, age and guage. The place is unique and I wish there was easier or at least a more obvious answer.
I am however somewhat familiar with PA finances and I sure don't want anybody thinking EBT is "to valuable to fail" so "sooner or later", big brother will save it. Nor are this issues unique to PA, but before you hope, expect or waste time advocating Harrisburg intervention, think about the K's: Knox and Kane and K-4.

The last thing the EBT needs right now is government control.

No, the last thing EBT needs is to have the orbisonia shops torn down for a walmart. Or to have a group propose a rail-trail from Orbisonia to Mt. Union...

Isn't sitting around waiting for a "deus ex machina" government intervention ... exactly what happened to the Brookins collection?

Ah, but the paridigm shift has already happened with the transfer to a foundation. This is essentially the crux of the issue that was suggested 10 years ago.

But now, today, we have a state and federal budget crisis to boot. The only question in PA is not if sacred cows are being slaughtered while we wait, but who they belong to, and when the farmers are informed.

It's not impossible. It is difficult. Its far slower and more difficult than anyone would have ever imagined. But as the man said, the point isn't that there aren't solutions, its that the 'easy button solution' is no longer to get your local/state congressman to push in an earmark/bill/ and hope nobody notices. That was always the easy way out, sort of like drawing 'Community Chest' in Monopoly and inheriting $500. Bury it in a state or federal parks budget.

You still need a plan, and a plan that has some relationship to visitation, business cost, economic impacts, and long-term survival.

The one thing EBT has going for it that really qualifies it as a legitimate, nobody-argues-the-point historic/museum site is the shops and site, which depending on your viewpoint is either a blessing or a curse. If and when government action can participate in a museum-type structure for conventional preservation, that needs it. The operating railroad function is a slightly different animal.

The Southwest Pennsylvania Heritage Preservation Commission is the organization that championed the last master plan and fits that regional description. They've been in this....forever.

Long term, one of the things I really look for in a project is the veracity and tenacity of the project proponents and whether or not anybody cares. They, and we, care. We just don't quit, and we shouldn't.