Despite your political leanings, one thing's for sure - the squeakiest wheels get the grease (Obamacare not coasting to passage because of the opposition is the most omnipresent example). Perhaps it is time for us to stop pontificating online and send letters to the board members of NRM. If you happen to be an NRM member, perhaps pink slips mailed to board members with "if you screw this 261 issue up, consider this your pink slip" messages on them. NRM is a public benefit corporation and by billing themselves as "National," should hear from their national constiuents.

I, for one, will be following up this weekend with my letters.

Mike

Alexander D. Mitchell IV, I'm not sure I follow you right. Are you saying that the NRM is getting nothing out of this arrangement? And that the 261 group doesn't owe them anything?
The 261 group pays them a large annual lease payment.

Are you saying that you saw no connection between the 261 and the NRM when you were visiting the 261 at some time?
There are placards on both sides of the tender that explicitly tell who owns the locomotive. Also, when people ask, we always tell them who owns the locomotive and at least I, and probably others, put in a good word for the museum while we're at it. The museum gets exposure, we run the engine and in so doing provide a living example of what these machines really were like back in the day.

So, if that isn't what you were saying, I guess I missed your point.
Mark D.

Yes, I know.



Yep. Consider I saw her at Scranton in 1995 and 1996.



What I'm trying to imply is that the PR value of the loco for the Museum may not be enough for them, at least in their eyes. To be honest, I can't say for certain what impressions are being made in 2009, because I don't live out there and haven't seen the NRM save for two visits in the 2003-2004 time frame. But when 261 comes up in railfan conversation around here and online, it seems that it's ALL about Steve Sandberg and the Friends, and any mention of the NRM is accidental at best.

Which implies not a surfeit of excellance from Sanberg and Co, but a lack of production of exciting programming from NRM.

Sounds like an academic author of scholarly papers complaining that the Harry Potter series is unfair because it appeals to a broad audience more successfully than his own narrowly focussed work.

Both of which are based on the fallacy of competition between each other, rather than our industries cooperative competetion with other industries forms of recreational marketing.

NRM gains nothing from 261 sitting cold and dead on the floor. NRM gains lease payments and a highly visible ambassador by having it out on the road. Is NRM in a position to build an excusrion production company comparable to the Sandbergs? If not, everything to lose and nothing to gain by quibbling about a few more $.

dave

[/quote]
What I'm trying to imply is that the PR value of the loco for the Museum may not be enough for them, at least in their eyes. To be honest, I can't say for certain what impressions are being made in 2009, because I don't live out there and haven't seen the NRM save for two visits in the 2003-2004 time frame. But when 261 comes up in railfan conversation around here and online, it seems that it's ALL about Steve Sandberg and the Friends, and any mention of the NRM is accidental at best.[/quote]

Mr. Mitchell,
During 4449's journey from Portland to Owosso and return, how many times did you see the City of Portland mentioned as the rightful owner of the locomotive? I followed most of the posts and don't recall seeing that statement anywhere except possibly in a reprinted newspaper article. I think it was ALL about Doyle McCormack and his crew. That is not a bad thing, as Doyle and his crew are the reason that the locomotive is still out there in operating condition and at this point, Portland's involvement is minor EXCEPT for their gracious loan agreement which continues to allow ALL of the money generated by the 4449 to be ploughed back into the organization.

Playing the devil's advocate game that you like so well, what has NRM done to flaunt the fact that 261 is their locomotive? I have not been to NRM since 261 departed but is there a placard or informational poster with the locomotive's history and photograph anywhere prominently displayed on their grounds telling 261's story and asking that visitors to the musem consider riding behind a live, locomotive which is owned by the museum in order to benefit both parties? In the thirteen years that I have volunteered for Steve and the Friends, not once have I seen anyone representing NRM on the train passing out informational flyers or membership forms to a captive crowd numbering in the hundreds. As Mark mentioned earlier, everyone else on the crew credits NRM when discussing the history of the locomotive, usually specifically mentioning Green Bay as her home. By contractual agreement, the ownership of the locomotive is displayed on each side of the coal bunker just behind the cab.

I just went to my files and checked the route guide for the 2007 "Steam to the Twin Ports". It was the easiest to access. The front page is a route map of the BNSF between Minneapolis and Duluth. Inside of the front page beginning with the upper lefthand column is the heading "Milwaukee Road 261". The third paragraph reads as follows:

"261 was in service for only ten years, and was stored in 1954. In 1958 the locomotive was one of the first displays at the new National Railroad Museum in Green Bay, Wis."

What do you suggest be done to further NRM's association with 261? Require that anyone who mentions the locomotive in any media or on any railroad discussion board be required by law to include a caveat which contains "261 is owned by the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay, WI"? Or at least use the tender, canteen tender, boiler jacket or tool car to carry billboard lettering declaring ownership by NRM.

In the "Wizard of Oz", the wizard resided in the Emerald City and was thought to be all powerful and even feared by his constituency, but the story was really about Dorothy, the Lion, the Tin Man and the Scarecrow. Even though he got main billing, The Wizard admitted to being a carnival barker who couldn't even control the flight of his balloon long enough to get Dorothy and Toto on board. I think the story of the National Railroad Museum and Steve Sandberg and the Friends of the 261 is much like that of the story of Dorothy and Friends and the "great and powerful Oz!"

Don C.

I think Newriver400 makes an excellent suggestion. As an annual supporter of the NRM I will write them an open letter expressing my feelings on this issue and hope it will have some influence on their deliberations.

I faced a very similar situation in 1973 with NKP 759. I had leased it in 1968 on basically a handshake deal with Steamtown founder Nelson Blount with the basic tennents of the deal being that I ( High Iron Company) would pay to restore her to service and HICO would pay Steamtown $1.00 for every ticket sold on excursions pulled by her and prominently credit Steamtown in all written materials. We kept our side of the bargain and all was fine until Steamtown brought on board a new Exec.-Director ( Bob Barbera) after Nelsons tragic air crash death. In 1973 Barbera "informed" me that effective immediately the Steamtown BOD voted that HICO would be required to pay $ 10.00 for every ticket sold AND that there would be a minimum annual fee regardless of whether any trips were run or not. He also stated that the $ 10.00 fee was " non-negoitable". Just as quickly as we could get her up to working pressure, and a crew assembled we sent her back to Steamtown with the friendly advice that Barbera might want to let her cool down for a couple days before he attempted that anotomically impossible task of putting the 400 ton engine where the sun don't shine!!! Unfortunatly, after a couple of feeble attempts at operating her in/around Vermont, Barbera&Co. managed to freeze her up by putting her outdoors full of water in sub freezing weather and that was the end of her. Today she sits forlornly in Scranton.

The eerie parallel with the current 261 matter is that IMHO both "owners" were/are ignorant of the financial realities of operating mainline steam. The financial dynamics today are the same as they were back in the 1970's. The ONLY way mainline steam then or now can run is if someone is willing to subsidize it as the revenues that come from ticket sales/souvenirs/donations etc. DO NOT cover all the expenses.

Without the SUBSTANTIAL financial support of the Sandberg family the 261's program would not have been possible.

My guess is that the folks at the NRM are not as aware of the real financial facts of life at play here and perhaps with some enlightenment will realize that a live and operating 261 is doing them a lot more good than just another stuffed&mounted exhibit?? I'll do my best in my letter to achieve that!!

If it turns out that the folks at the NRM can't be convinced that a live 261 is a far better asset than a dead 261 then so be it!! As previously stated there's LOTS of good engines out there that would love to be adopted by a wealthy sugar-daddy and would be grateful for the help!!!

IMHO- Ross Rowland

Ross,
Thanks for relating that "R" rated version of your unfortunate Steamtown debacle.

Here is my idea to help the National Railroad Museum. (I know, it would probably be a conflict of interest.)

Put Steve Sandberg on the board of directors. He obviously has some secret formula for the legendary "Midas touch" (and I don't mean automobile mufflers!). Maybe someone with an appreciation for the historical and important artifacts which NRM maintains and owns could determine some way to generate additional revenue for the museum.
Don C.

Maybe the NRM should ask the Colorado Historical Society how things are going at the Georgetown Loop, and how much money they are making.

Mike Stillwell
Buena Vista, VA.

That statement by NRM basically acknowledges this that they are looking at 261 as a cash cow, something no operating engine ever is.

Someone on the IRM Yahoo group made an interesting suggestion since there had been so much discussion about the 261 group leasing IRM's 265. The suggestion was that IRM and NRM simply swap engines and 265 be sent up to Green Bay. Then IRM leases the 261 to the Friends under realistic terms.

One less 4-8-4 (of 3 plus many, many other large steam locomotives) at IRM is hardly a huge dent in the collection and it's unlikely any of the large engines there will ever run *except* under circumstances that an external group becomes the caretaker. Besides the benefit to the museum's mission of informing and educating the public about railroading and steam in particular, arrangements could be made for cross promotions, etc. All of which are good arguments for leasing the 265 if the Friends wanted to go that route but presuming the 261 needs less work to get back on the road an ownership swap would make very good sense.

If NRM needs either an engine or big piles of cash so badly that they wish to kill what the Friends have been doing then let them have the cold, dead 265.

That was me; I made the off the wall comment to swap locomotives.
Just about the same time the group moderator suggested we move on, more or less take this fight out into the street.
I have to say here that although I spend a lot of time volunteering at the IRM. I am in no way connected or privy to anything the board might do. I actually would like to see MILW 265 preserved as is. The only other Milwaukee S class left that has not been rebuilt to my knowledge.
Here is my Yahoo post from yesterday.

Re: 261 news

When I made that flip comment about changing reporting numbers between 261 and
265 I thought I could stir up a few foamers. But the more I think about it, the
more sense a swap makes.

If the IRM were really serious about loaning MILW 265 out to the Friends for
rebuilding and excursions I think the following would work out best for all
parties.

The IRM and the NRM sell each other 261 and 265 for $1 each.

Now only one dead move needs to be made, MILW 265 to Green Bay. That has to save
around $40,000.

The National Railroad Museum gets what a curator would prefer, the most original
Northern to preserve for future generations.

The Friends group gets to pick up the overhaul where they left off. They don't
even have to change their letterhead.

After the lease runs out, The IRM gets the same basic end, a worn out rebuilt,
but better looking, Milwaukee Road Northern.

In the interest of co operation instead of stone walling it would be nice to see
the NRM, IRM and the Friends put a deal together. Like also offering their
members a 20% discount for all of each other's admissions and trips.

We will see what happens.

My wild guess is the Friends group, if it's still here in a year, will go for
some fresh meat. Something with a deeper pool of spare parts.
Like CB&Q 3007.
Now there's a rumor you can sink your teeth into.

Buzz -

If IRM wouldn't consider leasing the 265 to Sandberg, I can't see any way that they would consider leasing out the 3007. She is their only example of a 4-6-4 type. That's not to say that Steve and company wouldn't consider one of the other four surviving Burlington Hudson's.

Les

Fascinating! One could draw something of a parallel with the Georgetown Loop in Colorado, yes?

To some extent........but not a lot.

GLR is a case study in how a state agency can go wrong interfering with the private operators chosen to operate their property at a profit. One did very well and paid the state handsomely. In an effort to up the take at the end of a lease, that operator was lost - which coincided with a generational change in management within that operators organization.

The next operator was not permitted to operate the railroad without interference and under much less remuniterative terms.

Hopefully the third time will be a charm.

We're dealing with a private nonprofit in NRM, and there seems to be no internal changes in the Sandberg organization coinciding with the end of the lease. No mention has been made of internal and external influences acting at NRM to muddy the waters and create conflicts pursuing agendas not entirely clear to any of the principal parties, as continues in Colorado. I sincerely hope that somebody - preferably many somebodys - involved in managing NRM has a lot more understanding of railroading than anybody at the state agency in Colorado has.

So, like in that end of a lease and negotiations breaking down are shared. Unlike in almost any other way.

dave

If the 261 eventually does have to be returned to Green Bay, how much work would Sandberg and the Friends have to do to the engine to get her back in acceptable shape?

Les

Les,
99% cosmetic. The jacket would have to reapplied after the removed staybolt caps had been reapplied. The sides of the cab are off (sheet metal) to allow access to additional staybolts. The smokebox front is off which would have to be placed back on it along with some of the jewelry. Reattach the tender and BINGO, she's ready to head home.
Don C.