What an incredible thread. Absolutely fascinating.

"People are COMPLETELY run by stories they don't even realize they have, that they have reinforced in their own thinking for a lifetime."

That is quite a statement. I want to chew on that for a while. I know it's probably true of this Boomer (born 1953).

I think the trucking museum spoken about above just closed in the last month. Too bad.

Yes, and what a shame the closure of that museum is. Probably not the last victim of this sour economy either.

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2010 ... useum-rip/

PC

Disclaimer-proud member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Speaking-

It is sad that even the "enemy's" museum (trucks) is closing, and I find I am again thinking of the English. it seems they have museums for every type of obscure technology, and I mean multiples of each, from preserved steam sewer pumping stations (anyone up for a driver experience?) to vintage buses (as exciting to me as watching tar harden), and as issues of OLD GLORY will attest, they have continuing funding issues. But they WERE funded in the first place, and they are fairly well attended. The question then is chicken and egg-if you have such attractions being almost everywhere, like McDonalds or Taco Bell here, do folks get used to visiting them, no matter where they are, and expect them elsewhere?

It was their Govt. that largely did this, while ours funded sports stadiums in "partnership" with billionaire sports goons, or artsy fartsy venues for faux intellectuals...nothing for the historicially interested prols...the English view historic preservation as almost an entitlement, and build new steam locomotives and railroads, and driving traction engines is almost a national pastime.

Anyhow, there simply isn't enought private funding for History in this country, because certain generations didn't want it...besides, they had the old man at home quite happy to prattle on about his involvement in making the world safe for democracy.

The truth is, there isn't enough private funding for the stadiums and art museums that get built and funded...if there was, there wouldn't be any need for public funding. And the squeaky (and well funded contrubuters') wheel gets the grease.

Its a vicious cycle, the public doesn't support historic site funding because they aren't "familiar" with it, and they can't get familiar with it when it doesn't exist. Conversely, there are two or three whole generation of Brits that knew not yesterdays regualar steam, that are quite active in preserved steam today. But they had to be exposed somewhere.

Of course, the Europeans were able to fund all this with public monies, largely because their rebuilding after WW2 and defense needs were paid for by the US taxpayer.

BTW had a conversation about funding and regulation the other day...an interesting view came forth: If the government is going to regulate you, and make a private business adhere to a set of standards, shouldn't the government then be morally obligated to invest in same? Food for thought

Not at all disagreeing about the relative low importance of history in our relatively young country Jim, but:

Golden Spike NHS
Steamtown
Railtown 1895
CSRM
NC Trans Museum
Pa State RR Museum
Smithsonian Institution
NTM
GLRR
CATS
SAM Shortline
CHS (both)
Charlotte Trolley
V&T Reconstruction
Cass
Texas State RR


90 seconds off the top of my head thinking of publicly funded railroad related historic preservation operations. I know there are many more, from big multifaceted megamuseums to small town depots and caboose displays or park hulks.

From the neither wing but use whatever works best for this purpose right now lacking any universal and timeless right answer conspiracy against conspiracies conspiracy, lack of existance simply doesn't hold water.

BTW, Jeopardy tonight had a question relating to Seashore Trolley Museum. Some familiarity is presumed even in polular culture - jeep commercials with spike drivers, locomotives, steel mills......whatever cell phone guys have the 2-8-0 standing on its cab falling over..........I don't know if I'm seeing it used more or noticing it used more.

We MIGHT be starting to ride a wave of some semblance of historic reawakening if we don't blow it. How can we make ourselves more popular and culturally relevant?

dave

Ummmmmmmmm................ no.

It seems you're implying that the British government underwrote the founding and preservation of the British rail preservation scene. If that's what you meant, that is far from the truth.

As someone who has been involved (with his money) in British railway preservation since 1982, I can say that British rail preservation is no more "subsidized" than that of North America. You have the National Railway Museum and a few places that get direct or indirect subsidies or grants to keep up the track or the like, but no more so than here. Grant programs exist, but any potential rail project is competing against all the other places--the local mansion museum, the local farm museum, the canal museum, the old windmill, Hadrian's Wall, Castle Somebody's-Name, etc.

I'm beginning to think that the Heritage Lottery grant program, by spurring the "urban legend" that the UK government subsidizes British rail preservation, might be doing as much harm as good, if similar impressions are as widespread among the British public as they seem to be among American rail preservationists.

Well, maybe I am not as well informed as others, then, but there are certainly more articles on grants funding preservation in OLD GLORY and HERITAGE RAILWAY than in our ENGINEERS & ENGINES and TRAINS magazines.

As for the Texas State Railroad being a preservation project, most would view it as a "make work" program for east Texas.

Dave, consider all those entities you mentioned, then put a map to them....you will find vast areas of the US void of such institutions. Then map comparables in Great Britain. You an go lots of places here devoid of active Railway Preservation, and never see a steam engine of any kind, but that simply isn't the case over the pond. Compared to us, they are immersed in preservation and history, and it is a familiar world to the average person there...not so here in the land of suburbia and ten minute old communities. Even our tax structure in many communities favors tear down over preservation...increase the value of a property so the owner can no longer afford the taxes so they are forced to sell for development. Yeah, the seller got a wad of cash for sellin his property for a "greater use", but historic places, neighborhoods, and open space fall because the original owner was given little choice though taxation. Its capitalism, but the government is still manipulating the market to serve its paying constituants.

Their government at least benignly encourages preservation, ours actively discourages it.

The other thing we haven't mentioned is that due to out liability situation, getting actively involved for younger folks is more difficult.

Mr. Mitchell, I will say that even if the bulk of British preservation is private, would the British public have been able to afford it had the United States not contributed so readily to their defense and reconstruction?

I don't know much if anything about the British lottery proceeds program mentioned, but I would suspect that its presence helps considerably as being a regularly available pool of funds to apply for, even if you have to compete with Whoozit's Castle and the sewer plant.

I can repeat a story from John White, who used to be curator of transportation at the Smithsonian. As I recall from White's book, "The American Railroad Freight Car," White mentioned he was at some fundraiser or something for the Smithsonian, and a matron with money, who was apparently big on the arts, asked White which art musem of the Smithsonian he worked for. He told her he didn't work in any of the Smithsonian's art divisions, but was in the Museum of History and Technology, and had just finished the manuscript of a book on American railroad freight cars. Her reply was, "They don't really make you do that, do they?"

We don't get no respect, no respect at all!

[quote="robertmacdowell People are COMPLETELY run by stories they don't even realize they have, that they have reinforced in their own thinking for a lifetime.[/quote]

IF this is true - and I'm very inclined to believe it based on my experience - how many of us (as institutions) have actually written the stories we tell to our visitors? Even the broad scenario of the story we can then build a personally improvised interpretation around would suffice here. If we want to take control of the effect we have on our visitors, and stories are personally relatable, wouldn't this be the first step, before acquiring one bit of rusty iron or weathered wood?

When you get right down to it, or collections are just the sets and props that fill in the impact of the plays we write and present to our visitors. Too many of us are great scene painters and stagehands and too few are good playwrights.

dave

This turned up on my Facebook page, and it seems to tie in here--and it looks like preservation had something to do with it, perhaps more than that blue tank engine:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html

Interesting to see how something might change in four years, something we didn't see coming.

Despite the comment about Thomas not being effective, I wonder if what we had to do was wait for the young crowd to grow up a bit.

Actually, Fred volunteers at Illinois Railway Museum on occasion. So it's more related to museums than you think.

By marketing ourselves to the current and future generations of visitors in ways that reach them and demonstrating relevence to their lives. That will include a good deal of outreach-taking the museum to them and making it available through alternative means rathar than assuming that they will come to us. Old Pueblo Trolley is engaged in increasing it's public visibility by increasing the number of venues that we display our historic motor buses and (where appropriate) using the buses for their original purpose-to transport people.

To be certain, brick and mortar museums will have a place in the future. However, their role will transform as that of brick and mortar retailers has. Those that embrace the change and effectively manage it will do well. Those that do not will wither and most likely vanish.

I get your point, but it annoys me when people bring this up. So many employers don't offer alternatives. My own employer loves to talk about options, but doesn't actually allow anything other than, "You gotta show up, and by the way, more OT, just like every week for last several years." Employers couldn't care less about how an employee gets to work, but they better get there. And in an age of it being easier to make workers do manndatory OT every week as a permanent condition of the job (I'm going on year 6 of mandatory OT every single week, with no end in sight, and it's almost impossible to get any time off, you can't just decide to take the following day off, they even denied me time off for jury duty until a manager who knew the law had to step in) being easier than hiring new people, this isn't going to be an option for many people.... maybe ever.

[quote="robertmacdowell People are COMPLETELY run by stories they don't even realize they have, that they have reinforced in their own thinking for a lifetime.[/quote]

Odd timing...this thread comes back to life just as I'm reading a book (remember those?) on this exact subject, THE UNPERSUADABLES by Will Storr. He tells a good story about his research and in depth experiences delving into the world of irrational behaviors and antiscientific dogmatic belief systems....and finds that it's a natural part of the way humans are wired, although we can choose to some extent how much we want to be aware of those tendencies within ourselves even though we will never be able to completely overcome them....and that's probably a good thing after all, not taken to extremes. I'd recommend it.......

dave

Odd timing...this thread comes back to life just as I'm reading a book (remember those?) on this exact subject, THE UNPERSUADABLES by Will Storr. He tells a good story about his research and in depth experiences delving into the world of irrational behaviors and antiscientific dogmatic belief systems....and finds that it's a natural part of the way humans are wired, although we can choose to some extent how much we want to be aware of those tendencies within ourselves even though we will never be able to completely overcome them....and that's probably a good thing after all, not taken to extremes. I'd recommend it.......[/quote]
Sounds like a good book, I saved it to my Amazon list.
Sounds like the arguments I've had with people who genuinely believe we never landed on the Moon and everyone in the program (including our enemies in the space race) going along with it for over 40 years. I've tried to counter with Zero deathbed confessions or tell-all books among those with the program and lack of Russians calling us on faking the landing when they had the ability to ttrack the flights and would have a massive propaganda victory in calling BS on it to the world. But you can't use reason with people of that ilk (never have much need for ilk)...

P51, you might enjoy this debunking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGXTF6bs1IU

Re: telecommuting, it's only one of a half dozen options I suggested four years ago, do any one. I don't expect an oil well inspector to telecommute or drive an electric car, but he can darn well do veggie diesel.

Likewise if you don't like your job, seek others. Job mobility is an essential part of freedom, even if you never actually change, the point is you can. That's what separates us from slaves.