I just don't understand alot of people complaining about "why restore 3713, when they could restore 2124, 6039, or 759?" If Steamtown wasn't restoring 3713, these same people would be critical of steamtown for not restoring it in the first place. From what I understand, the main focus is getting 26 running, then shifting their priorities to getting 3713 running. And Rumor has it, 2317 will be going in after 3713 from what I have been hearing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, we all should be glad their are currently 2 steamers being restored back to operating condition, and 26 should be finished in what, 2 years at most? I also don't see the point in restoring the massive 4-8-4 2124 just to be used for excursions to Moscow or Tobyhanna. I like the choice steamtown made with 3713, and it should fill in admirably for 2317 for the time being.

Would I like to see 2124 or 759 operating again?! Oh hell yes! But lets be more reasonable here people.

How many other steam shops are there around the country that have multiple overhauls going on simultaneously? I remember a short time ago when I visited, the 3254, 26, 1361 and 3713 were all in the shop lined up being worked on. It was cool to see the various degrees of progress on each locomotive.

It's a huge shop and always has work going on. Remember due to manpower cuts they are not up to a full shop crew. It seems every track has something on it in the backshop, including the car bays. Management is working on getting the overhead cranes fixed and making the shop even better. Management has really got things going in the right direction and its showing. I will be back up there next month. Can't wait to see the gang and all the ladies again.

A few comments on Mr. Mitchell's rumor/allegations on #759's freeze damage in the 1970's. There are many Steamtown "stories" around these days--and a lot of them get blown way out of reality as they get repeated over the years. As I was directly involved in many of them, I try to correct them whenever possible--and even doing that doesn't always change what some of today's railfans want to believe!

For the record, here's the story behind #759's "freeze damage". In late 1973, the Delaware and Hudson RR tentatively approved a steam excursion featuring #759 and Steamtown's two operable ex-CP G-5 Pacifics (nos. 1246 and #1278). It was to be a two day extravaganza from Albany, N. Y. to Scranton, Pa. and return--with #759 as the "road engine" and the 4-6-2's as helpers on heavy several grades. Mr. Dick Williams of the D&H was put in charge of coordinating the excursion with Steamtown; since Steamtown had no heated shop facilities at the time, Mr. Williams offered to have #759 stored for the Winter in a heated roundhouse in Rouses Point, NY and the Pacifics in a facility in Plattsburg, NY. Steamtown personnel would prepare the locomotives for the excursion in those facilities. #759 steamed lite to Rouses Point in early November, 1973, and was bedded down in the D&H roundhouse--but not fully "winterized' because it was supposed to be kept in a heated facility over the Winter. The Pacifics did not go to Plattsburg because Steamtown had some potential use for them over the Winter (they did run a Winter excursion on the Green Mountain RR in December, 1973)--and that turned out to be a good thing for Steamtown as the Pacifics probably would have suffered the same "feeze damage" as #759 did.


What happened next is rather bizzare. As word got out in the railfan world that the excursion on the D&H was planned, Steamtown was beseiged with telephone calls and letters seeking details on the trip from those who wanted to chase and photograph. Steamtown's Executive Director, Bob Barbera, was notorious for disliking those who wanted to chase and photograph without buying a ticket (with some justification--but that's another story). Against the advise of his staff, Barbera ordered the trip flyer to contain information that the locomotives would be "shrouded" during the trip except for the paying passengers at photo runbys. Disgruntled chasers beseiged the D&H with their disapproval of the shrouding; the railroad informed Barbera that they wanted no part of hanging sheets on the locomotives during the excursion, but Barbera held fast that the locomotives were his and he could do what he wanted with them. The dispute ended up in the D&H withdrawing their support for the trip.


Steamtown planned to retrieve #759 from Rouses Point in the Spring--when warmer weather returned. But the D&H didn't tell Steamtown that when they withdrew their support for the proposed excursion, they also withdrew their offer to keep #759 in a heated facility for the Winter. Mr. Howard Hontz ordered #759 out of the Rouses Point roundhouse, and into outdoor storage in the D&H yard. That resulted in some freeze damage to #759--mainly to components in the feedwater system and flexible staybolt caps. Barbera filed suit against the D&H for the damage, and the D&H ended up being found at fault for the damage. #759 returned to Steamtown "dead in tow", and the D&H hired Wes Camp to oversee the freeze damage repairs at Steamtown's Bellows Falls shop. All damage was repaired successfully, and #759 was fired up and test operated on Steamtown's yard trackage at Bellows Falls. That turned out to be #759's last operation under steam.

#759's FRA boiler time ran out during the litigation with the D&H, and the locomotive was really too big to regular use at Steamtown--so it was decided not to do anything more with the locomotive at Steamtown unless someone else came along to foot the bill for boiler work. In 1977 or 1978, a potential excursion operator approached Steamtown about running some trips with #759; that party promised to fund the boiler repairs. It was decided to first apply for a tube extention as the locomotive was only going to see limited use, but a preliminary inspection revealed some question marks about the condition of the tubes and superheater units; when a tube burst under hydro, Bob Barbera said "no way" to applying for the tube extention.(To his credit, Bob was very concerned about tube condition--few railfans ever knew that he was a mechanical engineer, and he'd experienced first hand having his father Andy severely burned when a tube "let go" on Steamtown ex-Rahway Valley 2-8-0 #15 in 1973.) The interested party initially agreed to pay for #759's retubing; Steamtown's shop forces removed the front end and superheater units, and began drilling out flexible staybolt "telltales" in the firebox for Flannary testing of the bolts. Dillon Boiler was contracted to do the retubing and make repairs to some defective superheater units; Dillon Boiler removed the old tubes, and began preparing the boiler for a new set--and had a new set of tubes "lined up" for the locomotive. Dillon requested a "down payment" on the new tubes before placing the order. When Bob Barbera asked the potential operator for funds to cover the down payment for the new tubes, the potential operator backed out of the deal. That alone sealed #759's fate of operating again for the Steamtown Foundation. THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG MECHANICALLY WITH #759 THAT WOULD HAVE EVER PREVENTED IT FROM OPERATING AGAIN. And I think that's undoubtedly still the case as Ross Rowland mentioned #759 as one of the candidates when he was recently talking about the use of three steam locomotive for the proposed Greenbrier Express; of course, we all know now the Greenbrier Express won't have steam--at least initially.

So, will #759 ever operate again? It could, but most likely won't unless someone other than the Park Service finds a use for it--or some "sugardaddy" who really wants to see it run makes a huge donation to the Park Service specifically for that purpose.

Frederick G. Bailey

Fred,

Thank you for taking the time to set the record straight. It also blows yet another hole in the bow of the SS Railfan Rumor. I am so happy to see factual accounts posted without malice or uninformed opinion. This kind of information sharing is what I read RYPN for.

It boggles the mind just how many falsehoods are taken at face value as the truth. We need more mythbusting!

Rob

Ha! I knew I had seen post-1973 photos in Steamtown's archives of the 759 fired up in Bellows Falls! This is why I wind up saving Fred & Howard P's posts for my own files more and more often.

What is it they say, "When facts turn into legend, print the legend"? I'm glad we have those who know the facts.

Dave

Minor technical point to Fred B.'s otherwise perfect recounting of the Story Of 759-- I recall that there was a "settlement on the courthouse steps", rather than a "finding". A person involved in preservation railroading at the time was notified the night before he was scheduled to appear in the about-to-commence trial, that the issue had been settled by the D&H and Steamtown, and his testimony would not be needed.

Howard P.

Part of the problem, as I see it, Dave is that today we are used to every thrust of a piston being recorded, digitized or posted somewhere. It is hard for something to steam somewhere and not know it.

Of course, that wasn't the case in the past. Pre-Internet there were loads of things that happened with a handful of witnesses and never made it to the rumor mill or press. And there were fewer avenues to correct misinformation.

Funny thing is, I was only 5, but I clearly remember the Albany-Scranton trip plans, the shroud and even the doubleheaded G5 trip (which I rode). Mom had heard my PLEADING to ride the tripleheader with #759 (I can still remember the flyer), and I bet she would have agreed to it if it actually ran.

The other aspect of Fred's story that I enjoyed is that it clearly destroys the argument that High Iron literally rode her hard and put her away wet (to freeze) which has been a common Internet meme.

It doesn't help that there has been, and continues to be, a negative vibe in the railfan world that something is always wrong, someone always has their head up the proverbial butt, they don't get business, they don't get machinery, they use the wrong hand on the throttle... whatever. It is a cancer that not only turns away good people, but turns off newcomers. The title of this thread is a perfect example of leading with the negative and making assumptions that the worst possible thing is happening. Maybe it is human nature, maybe it is railfan nature, but it is a drag.

Rob

Howard P.'s comment is accurate--I probably could have used a better term that "finding" as a court verdict was not involved. The D&H admitted they were wrong in putting the locomotive into outdoor storage, and did not want to risk a trial in which Barbera was prepared to rake them over the coals. Since I was only discussing the freeze damage issue, I did not get into the entire D&H/Steamtown scenario with #759. After the D&H said "no" to the excursion on their trackage, Barbera reached tentative agreements with the B&M and CP to run a substitute excursion from Bellows Falls, Vt. to Montreal. It would have run tripleheaded on the B&M between Bellows Falls and Wells River, Vt--with the two Pacifics taking the train over the CP to Montreal. (#759 couldn't run on the CP trackage because of weight and clearance restrictions). Barbera also had several other trips inquiries "on the table" to use the locomotive before its Federal tube time ran out in August, 1974. Barbera, as part of the litigation against the D&H, wanted compensation for the loss of use of his damaged locomotive. According to Barbera at the time (and I ONLY heard his side of the story), the D&H agreed to make repairs to #759 because they were afraid of how much a jury might award Steamtown on the loss of revenue issue if the case went to trial.

Rob, I have to agree with you that it is mind boggling with all the myths that are out there in the railfan world. What is more mind blowing to me is that many of them will never be corrected, and continue to be blown out of proportion. Unfortunately, many of those who know the "truths" have passed on--and those of us that are left won't be around forever.

When it comes to Steamtown, I was very fortunate to have met F. Nelson Blount personally in 1963 and got to share his "Steamtown" with him on a number of occasions over the next few years. Before I even met him, I was well aware of what Steamtown was all about because I was good friends from early childhood with Bob Adams--one of the first two employees hired by Blount to work for Steamtown. Bob is now the only surviving Steamtown employee from the early days with managerial experience, and I've been fortunate to be able to contact him freely whenever I've had early Steamtown questions that I didn't know the answers to. As recently as the past few months, I've jogged Bob's memory to help keep some inaccuracies out of Jim Boyd's forthcoming history of Steamtown: FROM F. NELSON BLOUNT TO THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE. (Yes, folks, Steamtown's been around 50 years now!) Unfortunately, Bob Adams has suffered some serious health issues in recent weeks, and now requires constant personal care--only the good Lord knows how much longer he'll be with us. When Bob's gone, so will the last link to Steamtown's early managerial history from a personal experience perspective.

In one of my last conservations with Bob Adams, he reminded me that I'm the only one alive who has managerial experience with all of the Steamtown Foundation Executive Directors after F. Nelson Blount. Now that's a scary thought, but it's true! I began working under Edgar T. Mead, Jr. in 1970, and ended up with John M. Hart, Jr. in 1987. All of the Executive Directors I worked for in Bellows Falls are gone today. Bob Adams has told me several times that if someone is to write an accurate story about the Steamtown Foundation, I should be the one to do it. Indeed, my experiences with Steamtown would probably be an interesting story, and I'm sure I would destroy many Steamtown "myths" in the process--but I doubt I'll ever get around to writing that book. In the meantime, I'll try to comment on Steamtown inaccuracies here on RYPN and other websites--and help others in their Steamtown writings--whenever I have time. I guess that's better than nothing.

I appreciate the fact that there are those out there who want to know the facts rather than perpetuate myths.

Frederick G. Bailey

Mr. Bailey,

Many thanks for your recollections of this significant chapter in preservation history. Question for you-did Bob Barbera have a brother-possibly named Andy-who was an engineer at Steamtown while at Bellows Falls? As a kid, I remember visiting the cab of "D&H 653" as the guest of a delightful old-timer (the engineer). I seem to recall his name might have been Andy Barbera, but it's been quite a while since that day.

Thank you so much for clearing that up with us Mr. Bailey. Like many others here, it's nice hearing the true facts rather then the typical "rumors/myths" that are constantly floating around Steamtown.

According to the post above, Andy Barbera was his father.

It may also be our one, perfect, true and unalloyed success in 100% faithful preservation. On my more cynical days I've about concluded that sniping (I was going to use a more colorful term, substitute your own) is innate to railroading culture, from the lowest seniority craft employee to the highest VP. Taking the philosophical point of view, I have decided to view our adoption of it as a kind of backhanded success in perpetuating the essence of North American railroading.

John D,

You needed to read Fred's first post more carefully:



Steve Zuiderveen
(also former employee of
Steamtown Foundation)

For those of us that work for railroads, I can say whole-heartedly that you might be onto something. To put it more bluntly, "if a railroader ain't bitchin', he ain't happy!" I'm not sure what we'd do if we didn't have something to complain about...

Mike
421 miles from Grand Central...